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I tested the fuses ans relays and they were all good. I even measured the resistance of the contacts of the relays when they close and then operated a rated load on each and everything was good. Then did some driving and observing last night and noticed that this time there were fans on at around 210. Forgot to mention that I put the 192 degrees OEM thermostat and a new rubber ring around it (the old ring was cracked and swollen).
May be taking the relays out and back in made them all work somehow. Anyway, the temperature now almost never gets higher than 212.
The most important thing is that after a long research, I found a very interesting website with a few articles about this thread that I started, I hope it helps many of us. The sensor does not last forever. Here are two samples:
Thanks to everyone who read and/or replied here.
It looks like I will have to ignore the warning that I received about changing or messing with the sensor, since I already bought a new AC Delco (made in Israel) one.
And, BTW, I mentioned something wrong above, when I said that the voltage coming to the sensor was 1.2V. I measured the voltage between the two wires coming to the sensor when it was unplugged and that was wrong. I just measured each of the wires with respect to battery ground and they were 0 and 5 volts.
I’m sorry if I misunderstood CAM. But, that was the kind of help I was expecting here. No one told me that there are two kinds of flushes. I started the thread with a note that I’m dealing with an engine with an ignored cooling system. So, I guess his fast method works too, but I’m just never gonna do it when I can do the more comprehensive way.
I hope that this thread will be useful to other noobs like myself with all the great people and comments. Thank you all.With all due respect, sir, you are wrong. You just made your 50% out of thin air. Besides, I totally refuse to put any tab water in my car’s cooling system…That’s insane!
Here is how I did it:
1. My manual states that my system capacity is 10.6L. I measured the size of my radiator (that is simple, by measuring the volume of the liquid that comes out of it when both hoses are blocked) and found that it was approximately 4.5L, so the rest of the system is 6.1L.2. I did five iterations of the following:
a. emptied the radiator.
b. filled it with strictly distilled water.
c. purged the air using the valve and the spill-free funnel.
d. run the engine to operating temperature.
e. let it cool down for at least 2 hours.
Assuming that the old dirty liquid was 50%, then the concentration after each of the five iterations is as follows:
After first: 6.1X0.5/10.6 = 28.8%
After 2nd: 6.1X0.288/10.6 = 16.6%
After 3rd: 6.1X0.166/10.6 = 9.5%
After 4th: 6.1X0.095/10.6 = 5.5%
After 5th: 6.1X0.055/10.6 = 3.2% which is negligible, or I got tired. The liquid coming out of the radiator was very close to clean distilled water, anyway.3. I did three iterations (as in 2 above) but this time with 50%, 75%, then 75% antifreeze concentrations, respectively.
The resulting system concentrations were:
After 1st (50%): (6.1X0.032+4.5X0.5)/10.6 = 23.1%
After 2nd (75%): (6.1X0.231+4.5X0.75)/10.6 = 45.1%
After 3rd (75%): (6.1X0.451+4.5X0.75)/10.6 = 57.8% which was a perfect concentration according to GM’s datasheet.Please, do review your comment and the next time, try to put a little more effort in convincing your readers.
The only year/model that Haynes doesn’t make a manual for is this one. I could get a close schematic from googling for a few hours last weekend but I don’t know how to post it here. In my under-the-hood fuse box, there are 3 fuses and 2 relays which doesn’t look like the best schematic I found that has 2 fuses and three relays. So, I may have found the wrong schematic.
I’ll test the 2 fuses and three relays that I found in the morning.
I read somewhere that the cooling fans have two (may be more) speeds. Is that thue?
If there are speeds, then is it working by the computer using pulse-width modulation (PWM) or is it only two speeds due to some wiring trick in the fan’s DC motor armature winding?
If it’s the latter case, then there should be two relays (one for each speed) and there is a chance that only one is malfunctioning causing the closed loop temperature control system to get messed up and bounce.
I drove, yesterday, for several hours after bringing to coolant back to around 60% and purging the system well. Using the OBDII scanner and a wireless microphone I attached to the fan to see when the work. I noticed the following:
1. It takes a relatively long time of serious city driving to bring the temp to around 210 (about 30 mins).
2. The thermostat opens at around 197 and closes at around 191.
3. Most importantly, the fans work high speed when AC or heat is on, but not without. They only work high speed at around 219 which is kind of too much unless there is a low speed operation that was supposed to start at a much lower temp in the range of 200-210.Anyone with a 2004-2008 Grand Prix who knows about fan speeds?
Update:
I did three ant-freeze flushes, 50%, 75%, and then 75%, and the freezing and boiling points where the best. I estimated the overall concentration to be a little over 60%. I hope this discussion may help other noobs like myself.[b]ok, so I finished reflushing (emptying-starting for 10-20 min-filling radiator) 10 times (5 with distilled water to get all the old antifreeze out and five with 60/40 dexcool to bring it back to specs) purged the system the best I could, put new OEM thermostat-195 and a new radiator cap.
I just received a new OEM coolant sensor and compared it’s reading to the old one and they both read almost the same resistance for the same temp (which was for both 2.3 Kohms cold, and a little over 200 ohms at engine operating temperature).
I measured the voltage coming to the sensor (with the sensor disconnected), and one wire reads 5V to battery ground and 1.2V to the other wire, and then checked continuity between these two wires and the ECM connector and found their location at the connector and they were good.My engine is still, pretty much, in the middle between 1/4 and 1/2 the gauge which is about 192F, which is below the temperature that the thermostat opens, and the gauge never gets to the middle (210F) no matter what, but it does look unstable to me because it get’s closer to the middle (I saw a little over 200F, once) when driving in traffic, while it approaches 1/4 (177F) when driving on a highway at night when there are no hills.
The normal behavour that I’m sure everyone knows is that it shouldn’t fluctuate that much, and it should get about 20 degrees hotter.
Are there any people who have experienced something similar?
Please help[/b]I’m finishing the flush now, and every time I empty the radiator, I get closer and closer to clean water.
I read somewhere that the antifreeze should be diluted outside and then poured as a mixture. At the end of my 5 water flushes, can I just replace the radiator water with concentrated coolant and start the engine to have it mix it with the water already in?If that’s not bad, then it should get me very close to a good ratio where I’ll start measuring and adding/removing for fine adjustment.
Thank you lots DaFirns for the push towards those things. I initially looked up ebay and they were $75-100 and then I remembered seeing them at harbor freight (where electrical/electronic tools shouldn’t be bought) for around $35. I’ll keep that in mind and get a $20 one day. for now, the new sensor is coming in the mail today, and I will put it with the old one in hot water and see if there’s a large difference in resistance measurement with two or the same multemeters.
[ebay][ebay][/ebay][/ebay]I think that the inrared tool is a great tool but is too expensive for this specific task when it won’t measure the real temperature of the liquid inside the cooling system. but i’m getting a digital contact thermometer that i can make it’s tip touch the engine block when it’s hot just to get an idea and to prove to myself that the sensor resistance is indeed not reflecting the temperature of the engine. (like tis little cheap thing[ebay]http://www.ebay.com/itm/LED-Display-Digital-Temperature-Meter-50-to-110-Gauge-Thermometer-Sensor-New-/262363407835?hash=item3d1613e5db:g:iqgAAOSwa-dWsGo7[/ebay])
I’ll be very happy if it’s just a sensor thing, because otherwise, i’d have to continuity test the two wires to the connectors on the ECM, and if one or both don’t beep with all the dozens of ends on the ECM 3 connectors, that’s a nightmare. I pray that no one get’s a wiring problem like that.it looks the same as the prestone one for 3 times the price. i will get ph papers to test for humidity too.
thanks[quote=”Timothy S” post=166451]Since the coolant temperature sensor is out of range, I think you’re ready to replace it. It shouldn’t read lower temperatures than the thermostat is made to open at. Most likely it is just the sensor. The low readings seem to prove this.[/quote]
my statement that the resistance range has changed was only an educated guess, because i dont have another reference for the temperature of the coolant inside the cooling system when the engine is hot and it’s dangerous to open the radiator cap to measure.
i based my guess on the fact that driving any car for 20 mins on a highway and city traffic and with a new thermostat should make it reach the middle or more.
i will do the stove test as soon as i receive the new one and confirmthank you again mr. timothy
thank you, agree.
now im thinking that i bought the new sensor just to compare it’s response to heat with old one (over the stove test like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxV6M7Ror5c) just because it’s cheaper, easier, and less risky than tackling the wires and computer side or trying to contact a dealer for info or finding another car of the same kind to compare 😛thank you sir for replying.
I just ordered a new OEM sensor and should get it in a couple of days. It was only $20.The problem is that Haynes made books about all years of grand prix till GM stopped making them, but they only skipped the last year (2008) and it’s a lot of browsing for me to find a schematic. According to other similar GM engines of same year, the two conductors that go to that sensor are:
1. ground inside the ECM.
&
2. at the connection between a pullup resistor and an analog-to-digital converter(ADC, usually very high input impedance) inside the ECM.So, when i measured the voltage coming to the sensor when it was disconnected, I expected the beautiful 5V, while when measuring voltage with the sensor connected (kinda hard in reality) a lower voltage may make sence due to the voltage divider between the pullup R and the resistance of the sensor.
Having done the 100 ohm and 39 ohm tests and observing the gauge made me now think that in my specific case, the circuit inside the ECM is probably wired differently….puzzling
And that’s why, I’m looking for other opinions, hopefully more experienced than MHO, in addition to the fact that i’m not familiar with CTS resistance range shrinking after a while (thought it only becomes an open circuit when it’s bad)
BTW, this is a great video that’s very close to what i’m talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdUSvwZ4bPY
Thank you sir,
that’s what I was looking for. Imagine the number of poor new diy’s who watched that video (the author has millions of views and subscriptions) who will get in a lot of trouble following his inaccurate procedure. He has really good other videos, but not as sientific as for example EricTheCarGuy and a few others.I live in central PA where it gets cold, not any close to where you live.
Don’t worry about the price of coolant or the special funnel or tools because the fanciest stuff you buy are much cheaper than a commercial flush that you can’t trust or the price of your car’s engine.
What do you recommend for a freezing/evaporation tester? I saw a prestone device at walmart.
I only replaced what was in the radiator with a prestone flush bottle and distilled water and then had to use the car for 3 days and then i will finish the flush and the whole project, is that dangerous? Our teps now are 70’s day and 40’s night.
Please check out my other topic/question that I posted that I think I found an answer to and I would love a second opinion.