[turtlemonvh]

I know I’m a bit late to the party, but this is some good stuff.

Taking the car for a good test drive is a great step anyone can take. If the car behaves well for the entirety of a 15-30 minute test drive under a variety of conditions, you’ve already ruled out a lot of potential problems.

Also take the time to fiddle with the interior components a bit. This is something you should be able to do just about as well as a mechanic. Make sure you can adjust all the mirrors, roll all the windows up and down, adjust the seat / steering wheel / pedals, tune the radio, adjust volume on the stereo, pop the trunk and hood, get in and out of the back seat, find and adjust seat belts, turn lights on and off, etc. Many of these things don’t take long to check and are pretty expensive to fix.

I definitely support the advice of taking the car to a mechanic to have it checked out. If you’re buying the car long distance or just very busy, have a mobile inspection company check it out for you.

I try not to share too much stuff from my website on here, but since I already wrote an article on this topic, here it is: http://www.onpointinspection.com/articl … important/ . We also have other articles on vehicle history reports (e.g. carfax), tips for buying and selling cars, and other stuff that may be helpful.

[turtlemonvh]

Quoted From 3SheetsDiesel:

Pre-purchase inspections wouldn’t bother me in the slightest if I got paid on the clock, but unfortunately I don’t. The place I work, as is true for most automotive shops, pays flat rate, which I believe Eric talked about on his ETCG1 channel. To use that same 3/10ths that I mentioned, for me, that’s $6.48 before taxes come out. I think I’m worth more than $6.50 an hour, but if the car ties up my lift for an hour, and all I got paid was those original 3/10ths…

Thanks for the great reply 3SheetsDiesel. What you mention about pay is exactly what I thought would be an issue for most mechanics performing an inspection. I guess it does depend a lot on how your shop charges customers. I did watch Eric’s video on the ETCG1 channel and that was quite helpful.

I would say unless you see an inspection as a way to build business for the shop, it probably doesn’t make much sense to do them at the cost you were mentioning. As you said, if you do it well and find a lot of problems, they probably won’t even buy the car, so you won’t be able to fix it for them. I know several shops in my area actually perform inspections at a loss. Several places charge $30-50 for an inspection that will take 45 minutes to over an hour, so I know they’re not getting all the money their time is worth. But most of these shops will make sure the customer has a great experience during the inspection and make them a fan for life. If your shop is able to save a customer from a bad purchase, or even just help them negotiate down a price because of needed repairs, they’ll probably come back to your shop next time they need a major repair.

Still, there are other shops that charge closer to $100 for an inspection, so they’re charging closer to a normal diagnostic labor rate and they may be getting their money’s worth.

[turtlemonvh]

Quoted From jbone:

I think what beefy is saying that if someone clears the computer it takes about that many miles for it to show up again….And if seller doesn’t want u to take it for that long then maybe he might be hiding something…..

Thanks for the clarification jbone. This makes sense. Still, I would think the test drive would start getting a little awkward around the 30th minute unless you explained your rationale.

[turtlemonvh]

Quoted From zakmartin:

A paint thickness tester goes a long way when checking to see if there were any repairs done on the car. If you’re going to be in the inspection business, you should get one.

Thanks zakmartin. Is the paint thickness meter something most mechanics would be expected to have around the shop? Or is this something that would generally just be found at body shops?

[turtlemonvh]

Thanks julian, pcmdjason, and Shaun_300 for the tips on rust. The idea of dealers from the north sending rusty cars down south is an interesting one to look out for pcmdjason!

[turtlemonvh]

Quoted From mckrishes:

a good obd II computer that can analyze current problems and any history of previous problems

Thanks mckrishes. In conversations with many mechanics, I was surprised at the number who did not include a code scan as a regular part of their inspection process. At many of the chains thay charge extra for a code scan. I would think that scanning the engine codes and jotting down that information is not too terribly time consuming if you have the computer already available – or am I wrong about this? Does it take a while to look up the relevant information?

[turtlemonvh]

Quoted From Chevypower:

Fluid leaks for obvious reasons. Next, pull any dipstick in sight and look for shiny metal flakes in the fluids. Avoid that car like the Bubonic Plague morphed with HIV and Siphilis.

Also, tire wear patterns. Are you going to buy this car off of the lot, only to drive it to the shop down the street and pay through your nose for a 4 wheel alignment?

Road test: Find out what that noise is BEFORE you discuss pricing.

Thanks Chevypower! When you look at the fluids, do you just do a visual inspection to check for metal flakes? Do you run any type of chemical or physical tests on any of the fluids? I know there are lots of tools for doing this and people seem to be divided as to their usefulness.

Tire wear patterns are a great idea. There are so many complex suspension and alignment problems that can show up the weird tire wear patterns.

I agree the road test is also essential. Experienced car purchasers are divided as to whether to negotiate on price before or after. Negotiating before means that you have a price that you’ll be happy with assuming the car is fine. Any issues mean a subtraction from that baseline price, meaning a better deal for you. But if the problem is significant, it usually means starting over the negotiations from scratch, so either way of handling things could probably work just fine.

[turtlemonvh]

Quoted From twiggy02919:

Also make the spare tire and included jack/tools is not missing. Twice I’ve bought a used car only to find out I don’t have a spare.

I’m glad you mentioned this. I found this present on a few inspection checklists and absent from a few others, and I always thought it was a great idea.

By the way, is that a border collie in your picture? My parents have one and she’s a blast to play with.

[turtlemonvh]

Quoted From julian:

Researc the car on what problems they are prone to having, and figure out what the symptoms of those problems are…then look for them.

Thanks julian. This is really the main idea behind our statistical methology for guiding the inspection process. We’ll look at repair rates of various components and optimize our inspection to focus on areas of a car that are more prone to failure.

What resources do you use now to do this research? I know of a lot of places to find reliability studies, reliability ratings, and test drive data, but is there any resource (or resources) you’ve found particularly valuable for looking up the problems that cartain makes and models are prone to having?

[turtlemonvh]

If the goal is to just make the site more “mobile friendly” there are a few rather simple tricks that go a long way for this. This should make it easier to get to the forum (http://www.luscarpa.com/development/mak … plication/), and this tip (http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5488 … ds-browser) made my company’s site a lot more mobile friendly very quickly. I hope that helps.

[turtlemonvh]

If anybody has experience with a few of the phone-app based software tools, I would definitely like to know more as well.

If the main comparison is between Digimoto and EFI Live, this site (getcomparisons.com) provides a pretty good interface for doing simple 1v1 product comparisons. In the mean time, this site seems to have some good information about available tools for OBD II: http://www.webpg.net/

[turtlemonvh]

Quoted From killman:

Honorable Grasshopper, one thing that you do when buying a decent car from a dealer is to read usedcartips.org. This is a plain website written by a retired car salesman about all of the cons that new and used car salesmen will use on people during a car purchase. My father and step mother read the site and not very closely because it said used and not new car tips. They ended up having half the crappy cons that salesmen pull on customers at the last minute happen to them.

Tri9SS has nice points and I would like to add Autocheck to his list. This company is like Carfax, but may be able to check dealer records as well as auto auction data such as “Sold at auction – announced as frame damage” which was a real car that I came across. Autocheck can be used to double check Carfax and vice versa.

Most cars brands and models have similar issues that causes problems or break down time and time again. GM 3100/3400 have lower intake manifold gaskets that need replacing by 150k miles. Most Kia/Hyundai cars all seem to use timing belts on interference engines that really need to be changed on schedule if not earlier. VW DSG transaxles have had so many problems that the recent resale values of VW with DSG transaxles are $1-2k less than manual transaxles cars that cost $1k less in the first place.

Thanks for the great response killman! I’ll definitely go through usedcartips.org. I’ve stumbled across this site before, but I’ll read through the content in a bit more detail per your suggestion.

I agree with your suggestion on AutoCheck. I did a bit of analysis on different vehicle history report options myself, and I came to a similar conclusion: it’s really best to have both, esp. for a high value car. You can see what I came up with here (http://www.onpointinspection.com/articl … rt-enough/ ), but basically I found that you should check free gov’t databases first, then Autocheck, then maybe CarFax, but you shouldn’t really rely on any of those too much to catch problems.

Your information about the re-occuring repairs on certain makes and models is great – this is actually a big reason for the approach we are taking to optimize our inspection process! By taking 100s of thousands of parts replacement records, we can find trends for what parts fail more often than average on certain cars and highlight those parts for mechanics to check. When we get this capability up and running, I will be sure to check to see if we are able to predict these problems you point out here.

[turtlemonvh]

Quoted From Third Gear:

I’ve had Autocheck find things that Carfax didn’t – food for thought. On another note they only check things that are reported. I have a friend and his car has been in a major accident and stolen once and his carfax is completely clean – so keep that in mind.

One thing I always keep an eye out for is to always check the automatic transmission fluid level and color. Most people do not change their transmission fluid, and that is why they fail. So if the fluid is burnt, that gives the buyer room to negotiate the price lower because a transmission problem could be on the horizon.

That’s why sometimes I feel more comfortable buying a manual transmission because the fluid last longer than in automatics. Although I still like changing that fluid as well.

Thanks Third Gear! I completely agree on the vehicle history reports. A great article from consumer reports (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars … /index.htm ) found that it was not uncommon for 1 report to miss something and another to catch it, or for all reports to miss major damage completely because of the reporting problems, like you mentioned.

Checking AT fluid is a good point, and it’s something we def. include on our inspection process. It seems like the guys over at CarTalk agree with your point on AT fluid wearing out (http://cars.cartalk.com/content/advice/ … fluid.html ), and I’ll be sure to highlight this point to our customers.

[turtlemonvh]

Quoted From 3SheetsDiesel:

Speaking as a mechanic who occasionally does that sort of thing as part of my normal job, here’s what I look for, in no particular order. Before I get in the car, I’ll walk around it looking for any dents, or spots where the body panel gaps aren’t quite even. I’ll also look for parts on the body that maybe aren’t quite the same color as the rest of the car. That may be signs of accident damage/repair. I’ll then take the car on a shor test drive, listening closely for any abnormal noises; roaring from the bearings, clunking from the suspension, squeaks over bumps or under braking, things like that. I’ll also be trying to find any vibrations that may or may not be there.

Once I get back to the shop and into the bay, I’ll press every button in the car. Does the heater work correctly? Do the windows work? Does the top go up and down (if it’s a convertible), does the radio work ok? How about the AC? I’ll get a helper to check the lights for me to make sure that none of them are burnt out. After that’s all done, I’ll open the hood and check all the fluids to make sure that none of them are burnt discolored or low. I’ll make sure that the belt(s) aren’t cracked.loose.squeaking.missing entirely. I’ll also see if anything is leaking like valve cover gaskets, intake manifold gaskets, radiators, etc. I’ll also check inside the airbox for critter nests. After I’m done checking under the hood, I’ll set the lift under the lift points and pick the car up to about chest height where I’ll shake all 4 wheels to see if there is any play in the suspension, I’ll also look for things like leaky shocks/struts. Then I’ll pull at least 1 front and 1 rear wheel, although most of the time I’ll pull all 4 off and check the tires for abnormal wear patterns. I’ll then take a look at the brakes to make sure that they’re in good shape. After I’m done with all that, I’ll lift the car higher so that I can walk underneath it, where I’ll continue looking for fluid leaks, worn out parts, excessive rust, etc. I’ll make note of anything that I find one a peice of paper so that the buyer can either decide to buy/not buy the car, or negotiate a lower price. Depending upon how many faults I find, and how big the car is, this entire process may take the better part of a hour.

One of the reasons that I really don’t like doing that sort of thing, however, is because after I go through all those checks, I know that I’m not going to be making any money off of the repairs right then, if ever. Another reason I don’t like doing it is because half the time the customer won’t listen to my recommendations anyway, and then all of a sudden I look like the bad guy because they bought a lemon. I had a customer at a pervious shop who was considering buying a 2007 Chrysler Sebring convertible to replace her 2006 Sebring convertible. This was in 2009. The 2007 had a nasty transmission leak, some obvious accident damage that was repaired by apparently the lowest bidder, 4 bald, mismatched tires, no spare, 4 leaky struts and a strange noise from the rear end when ever it would go over a speed bump. I spent a good hour and a half writing up all it’s various faults and then explaining to the customer what was wrong with it and why I thought that it was going to be nothing but trouble. She seemed to listen to my explanation, asked me some questions that I answered for her, and then she proceeded to buy the car anyway. It left her stranded on the side of the road a week after she bought it, and it was, in her mind at least, my fault because I was “the last guy who touched it”.

Thanks for the awesome response 3SheetsDiesel!

It sounds like most of what you do in your normal inspection process is included in what we recommend. Do you usually use a checklist to guide you when doing the inspection, to make sure you don’t forget anything? When you check for leaks in valve cover gaskets, intake manifold gaskets, and radiators, do you just check for fluids in the appropriate areas or do you do something more sophisticated than this? I really like your tip about shaking the wheels – that’s a great simple and fast test.

It’s interesting to hear why you don’t like to perform inspections, and your story about the lady with the Sebring is great. My company is working on talking to mechanics and trying to gather their opinions on how we can make the inspection process go better for them, and this is exactly the kind of stuff I like to hear about.

Is there anything you would have done differently if you could do it again? Something else you would have said? Did you provide her with a quote for repairs that you suggested for the car she was looking at? Life expectancy of parts that looked shoddy? I’m working to talk to people buying and selling cars now about what info they want from mechanics, but it would be great to hear what you think too.

[turtlemonvh]

Quoted From Beefy:

The biggest thing I would recommend beyond a solid visual inspection and checking to make sure all the buttons work is a good test drive. By good, I mean, take the vehicle through all the obstacles. Freeway, stop and go, up and down hills, everything you could possibly encounter driving a car. I’ve owned over 20 crappy used cars in my 16 years of driving, and most of the faults I found and were able to haggle over were by putting 30-50 miles on the car. If the owner of the car doesn’t want you to drive it that much, he’s hiding something.

Thanks Beefy. 30-50 miles is quite a lot, though – is there anything in particular you look for that requires that kind of range? I do agree that taking the car through a full gamut of tests when the engine is both cold and hot is good, but usually that can be done in a bit less than 30 miles, right?

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