[TheArete]

You’re thinking of Ignition timing which the PCM/ICM control. I’m talking about Valve timing, the actual mechanical timing of when the valves open and close relative to the crankshaft rotation (piston position) which can only be adjusted via Advancing or retarding cam position, which in turn means irrelevant of when the spark occurs the valves will open or close a little sooner or a little later.

I know some enthusiasts out there mess with Valve and Ignition timing, especially with programmable PCM’s/ECU, for performance gains, my valve timing however was just human error.

You can create your own timing marks using a degree wheel on a crankshaft and a piston stop if for say… you have a crank sprocket/gear without the timing marks on it like a lot of older British cars do with their timing chains. All you need to do is find TDC manually and mark it and you now have new Timing marks. Same is true with Cam sprockets that have markings or are put in the wrong key. Simply manually find TDC of the valves (multiple ways people go about this, the least of which is “eyeing it” or using a straight edge on rocker assembly single valve set ups), make the mark on the cam shaft and an aligning marking on the engine housing (or as FSM has, on the other sprocket) and Voila. New timing. That easy… not really lol, you have to know what you’re doing and a little theory behind it (where the cam lobes are positioned relative to the valve lifters at TDC on the compression stroke) and I guess a little trial and error…. Hell some people do this and take it to have it dyno’d. Each microadjustment they go and look at either the gains or decreases and then adjust accordingly.

Anyways I don’t really know enough to go into great detail, a power enthusiast would probably do a better and more accurate job of explaining it, but in short… my valves were at the wrong position because the sprockets were at the wrong position. Pics and Vid’s forthcoming to help illustrate what I’m saying… or at least…. I hope it’ll be helpful. lol.

[TheArete]

If you remove the vacuum hose off the regulator during idle or under load and it starts driping or spewing gasoline then yes, the diaphragm maybe ripped, but you’re regulator is toast. Start the car and remove the vacuum hose, and watch the fuel regulator for about 2-3 minutes to really catch and drips or spray of fuel. If you see that, then yes you’re regulator is bad.

Another way to check is with fuel pressure specs, measure the fuel pressure with the vacuum hose attached and then with it removed during idle and WOT. The PSI should jump in the fuel line when you remove the vacuum hose a specified amount. If it doesn’t then it’s probably bad.

How careful were you to remove fuel pressure in the system before you replaced the injectors? Did you drop the fuel rail (I’m assuming you’re regulator is on your fuel rail, which reminds me What year is your civic and what engine type?). Alot of things could of happened to it. Anyways I’m sure some other good souls will chime in here with some advice.

[TheArete]

Dreamer, you beat me to the punch! lol.

Yeah what ^ he said.

[TheArete]

Dreamer, I have a Haynes and some of the FSM so I’m set there. As far as the MAF goes, it’s only a 3pin so it does not have a 5 volt reference.
It has a B+ (power) MAF (Signal voltage) and GRD (Ground). Ohh borrowed a PID scanner so I can give you guys the full stats after we reassemble Betsy for the Umptenth time.
Interesting link dreamer, it sounds like they’re suggesting its more accurate because your engine has full access to air (leading to higher numbers off the bat), which means equal access to air intake across all cylinders, lending itself to really highlighting the cylinder/s which are lower. So if you’re not extending the crank time or really cranking the EXACT same amount each time, you might not get full compression on a cylinder. Do you guys have a preference on Compression gauges? I’m thinking about shelling out and snagging a more accurate one for this exact reason.

DjDevon, Ahhh man way to shoot down my theory. lol. Thanks for the info on that hose, I was curious as to why it was attached to the thermostat housing and it’s purpose. Mits part on a Mazda engine put together by Ford…the more you learn everyday. Never would of Guessed. As for the video that’s an okay one, I think there’s a better extended on on youtube that I used last year when I was looking for help on the timing last time. Nice thing about those guys is they take the time to explain some of the theory though NOTHING beats MSDignition videos on Distributors and Timing and MossMotors.
A lil heavy handed on the Theory but FANTASTIC nonetheless. Check it out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPdSCWZbHEU

Eric, Alrighty I’ll pop off the IAC and manually open and close it with my thumb after we get the baby put back together. Though I should mention that she did sit awhile BEFORE I bought her. The problem manifested itself during the summer (which I had driven the car the whole time with mainly just overheating as an issue (bad thermostat).

I didn’t fully explain the timing shenanigans. I’ve done the timing before and 2 different shops checked the timing. Each time the timging has been done or checked, or adjusted… the problem has worsened or gotten slightly better. Here’s my concern… these idiots at the unameable shop I’ve vented on before, took off the cam sprockets to help remove the timing belt and did NOT put the sprocket back on correctly (maybe 180 off), that’s if my cams don’t have just one key and gateway like the crank does (I’m thinking two). If this is the case… then even though they are right now TDC on the crank while the cam marks are aligned perfectly horizontal as well… she’s not in time. The exhaust or intake valves would be slightly open and therefore off because the sprocket was put on incorrectly.

My plan today… Check the crank and make sure the balancer is TDC and manually check the TDC not with the mark but by piston stop. That’ll let me double check the marking on the balancer and engine housing.

2nd. Rotate Sprockets till the valves on cylinder number one are at TDC (both closed) and make sure the Timing mark on the cam sprocket is correct.

3rd Realign the distributor housing and make sure the rotor is pointing exactly at cylinder number 1 (cap) while the Crank, and Cams are set at 0 degrees or TDC. Then once all this is verified I can adjust the distributor to get it to 12 to 15 degrees BTDC.

I have a timing light, a old timer next door neighbor mechanic whose got an ear for Timing and some beer….We’re set. Also while I’m at it I’ll probably check and clean all the grounds while the Intake system is off and everything else is out of the way. Thanks for sticking with me, I know this whole thing is pretty heavy in info… just trying to provide the utmost information, details and reasoning.

[TheArete]

The Plot thickens. I have the end of this book coming to a close now and it’s strange… I mean what are the freakin’ chances /probability… I mean I’m looking at the issue to all this right now (after we spent the day tearing her down) and I gotta say… I’m not sure if anyone would of caught this issue. Anyone… Unless they saw what I saw… two little white marks. I see now why several Techs/Mechs/ me and my bro and everyone else whose looked at it… couldn’t figure out the issue. Very heavily obscured.

Problem fixed? I’ll let you know tomorrow but we have isolated it. I’m being intentionally obscure because I just can’t type this out… I’ll have to show you a video of it. Lol. It’ll be good… trust me and something you probably have not seen that often if ever.

[TheArete]

Not to be cliche but… “Dude this LOOKS SO AWESOME!” lol.

Thanks for the diagrams, nice touch pointing all of the stuff.
Love seeing a down and dirty baby taken apart and put back teether. Did you buy this truck as project rebuild in mind or as you said… after peaking in and see crappy exhaust and leaks said…

“meh f**k it, let’s rebuild it” ?

[TheArete]

yeah Totally forgot, shes’ a manual transmission.

Thanks DjDevon, yeah it’s just the O-ring that’s gone, I did another cleaning frenzy on the valve cover and engine as well as the disty and the Disty is looking in used… but decent condition. She reads a mitsubishi, so I’m guessing she’s aftermarket, and since the plug wires are not OEM here’s my thought. Bare with me.

This engine does have a lot of wear, rust and broken/missing parts (I just easy-outed two siezed valve cover bolts). The Engine lift mounts however.,.. are bent… as if the engine has been pulled out. This coupled with the compression, the non-OEM wires, plugs, and possibly the Disty as non OEM, and some strange bolting… I’m thinking this sucka was overhauled at some point in time and she was rebored, new rings and maybe new pistons before I bought her. What do you think? Anyway to tell for sure?*Update*
IAT- The resistance was higher than expected but I’m not sure if that was because it’s about 50 out here and not the room temp 69

[TheArete]

It truly is a bummer and I’m not going to lie, I think we are just too honest of a crowd (most of us *Halo Appears around head* ) to double vote… except for our family in absence. But I agree with Twiggy and Dreamer… More exposure for Eric and it’s great to see his name getting out there. Super excited to hopefully get some new followers and props to Marydoodles. I think car repair is more interesting and helpful in my humble opinion but… To each their own and congrats to her for having a Crap load of votes and Congrats to Eric for pulling in such a strong and devoted turnout of wrenchheads, DIYers, and Mechs/Techs!

[TheArete]

update #1204

New Fuel pressure Tests–
1st test- 33 psi on idle, up to around 38 psi when WOT, and goes down to about 31 psi after the car starts bogging down. Remains at 31 psi even 10 minutes after car was turned off.

2nd Test- 33 psi on Idle, up to around 38 psi when WOT and went down to 34 psi after car starting bogging down. Remained at 31 psi even 45 minutes after car was turned off. Both Test are w/in specs (should be no less than 30 psi and no more than 38 psi)

*Edit* With regulator vacuum hoses disconnected we get a rise of psi to 42, w/in spec. Almost certainly not a fuel issue from here to the tank.

14.57 volts on battery while running and no significant drop when it begins surging.

Removed 02 sensor. Idles high still and then when it begins bogging down you can distinctly hear a “brrp brrpp” a second before it bogs down…. then it goes back up and then immediately preceding any more bogging down by about a second you hear what I presume is a misfire/s. Any other explanation for hearing this? It’s not extremely loud or high pitched, more of a low sort of cough or sputter.

*Edit* removed Intake up to throttle body including IAT, MAF, and the main vacuum hose from the valve cover to the intake and a smaller line from the intake to the EVAP system, with the O2 downstream sensor still removed. Throttle body looked clean on the intake side and really wasn’t bad (a lil carbon buildup) on the other side of the butterfly plate. Cleaned Plate and body.

Removing Intake sensors/ hoses obviously caused a rough idle BUT… no more surging, and the biggest fluctuation I saw was about 200 rpms. No more high idle, started right up around 1000 rpms (which is were it was before this whole thing began). The sound out of the O2 hole greatly diminished. Thoughts? We’ve checked the MAF but maybe there is still something in that system beyond the checks I did. Maybe in the harness (the conductor) between that and the PCM?

[TheArete]

Don’t throw parts at it bud. Start with the basics (seriously, the most complicated system usually fail because of the basics).

1st check your battery voltage, should be near 12.5/6 volts. Check, Double check, Triple Check your battery connection by removing the leads and making sure you remove all the corrosion and TIGHTEN down the leads onto the battery terminals again.
Check the voltage on the leads (not the battery terminals) you should be reading the same battery voltage. If your not… then you’ve got corrosion or something causing resistance at the leads.

You need 3 things for a circuit to be completed: a source (battery), A conductor (Wires) and a Load (starter, ignition) and usually a protection (fuses, breaker) and a control ( your ignition key). So check the easiest stuff first, like all the fuses in the engine compartment, and test the fuel pump relay by turning the car to the “on” position (have a buddy do that) and then placing you’re hand on the relay top… you should be able to hear the click and feel it as the low voltage circuit opens up the high voltage one.

You need Spark, Gas, and Air to run an engine. Can you hear the gas pump when you start the car. Stick you’re ear (with the filler cap off) next to the engine tank and listen in a QUIET environment while someone turns the car to the “on” position. Do you hear a quiet whirring noise? If not… then you’re fuel pump may have a problem or be dead.

Next let’s check spark. Grab yourself a lil 7 dollar or 14 dollar spark tester (it connects between your spark plug and distributor) and look for spark, or just remove your plug wire and spark plug and ground the plug threads to the engine metal… you should see a bright blue spark when you crank the engine (just don’t touch it while you’re doing this or you’ll get anywhere from 20,000 to 40,000 volt jolt!, so maybe grab some insulated pliers and hold onto the plug wires)

Next you said you’re engine cranks so we know it’s got enough juice for the starter. But maybe it’s not getting to ignition or fuel injectors. Test your fuel injectors (depending on where they are you’ll need to grab you’re manual and see what test they recommend).

Do that, go back and watch some of Erics No start videos (there’s more than one) and let us know whatcha got.

Also is there a CEL/MIL? If so what codes are you getting?

And Dude… post this in the Service area of the forum otherwise no one is going to see it who’ll be able to help ya.

[TheArete]

I can do a second round of testing, or maybe the gauge is miscalibrated? possible. It’s close enough to specs that I’m not worried considering this was a cheap gauge and the Dry tests are pretty close to 170. Misreading gauge (marked in 5psi increments) compounded with slight miscalibration could easily explain that.

In any case “betsy” most definitely does not have aftermarket anything other than a coat of rust. Lol. But I love her nonetheless. Don’t think that’s the problem though, too much compression just means I’d be getting maybe more backpressure but through the O2 removal we know that isn’t what’s causing this idle surge and if the piston were traveling to far we’d see spark plug damage wouldn’t we or other nefarious issues.

I’ll go grab another gauge at some point to make sure that one is accurate but from what I’ve tested so far… removing the intake to the throttle body should have no effect on the surge (which it does) if the issue was compression so it’s unlikely that’s the cause.

Thanks for the factory specs man, much appreciated!

[TheArete]

Compression test was done with ignition disabled and Fuel Injectors turned off, I don’t have scan tool right now with Live PIDs to see what the compression is at WOT, so I guess the next step is to really grab a scan tool.

A MAF can be tested relatively well with a DMM as can the TPS, you just have extend the testing as the refresh rate isn’t fast enough to capture everything that is happening on a multimeter, so basically you’re doing it for 5 minutes trying to catch the peak and lows or you’re actuating the sensor slowly to try and catch all the readings. As effective as a scope… negative, but it’s what I got to work with unfortunately at the moment. Am I confident in my MAF readings… relatively but not well enough to put it out of the picture. I’m thinking I’ll bow to the pressure and snag that Launch Tech and get some live data graphing which will capture at a much faster refresh rate and I can pull those stored codes.

New development, the Distributor is most definitely leaking oil, after my cleaning frenzy I can be 100% sure that oil is new and coming from a busted seal. Question is, can I just replace that seal or given that my rotor and cap already have some wear, buy a new OEM distributor for 200 pop?

Alrighty, timing up next given that we are having misfires and the t-belt is new. Let’s see where this goes.

[TheArete]

*Update*
Here’s the next big rush of Info.

Fuel pump… for the longest time I thought it was dead, or in a time continum, you could literally have the cap off and your ear against the filler neck and hear nothing when turning the car to “on.” Jumpered the diagnosis pins and kept it going with outake hose (back to the tank) removed and gasoline poured out. reinstalled plug and listened very hard and sure enough… the tiniest of all whrrrsss.

IAC– Okie dokie, tapped on the IAC and the throttle body which the IAC is attached ontop of and no change in speed or rpms. Resistance read 8.8 ohms, w/in specs. If removing the IAC plug during idle, idle immediately becomes erratic as it should (not the same eratic as when it surges, a steady sort of up and down).

MAF– B+ to Ground we are reading almost battery voltage of 12.06 w/in specs, and back-probing the MAF while in “on” position gives us 1.28v w/in specs, while at idle it smoothly goes to 2.17volts, and when reved up to 2.8/3volts, all w/in specs. When rpms are increased it optimally should read about 2 volt difference not 1 but thats still okay. MAF cleaned again.

TPS- No visible damage. Getting .484volts (1/2 volt) from the ground and signal, which is perfect. Reading 5.0 volts reference which is perfect. *Edit* Sweep test gives me constant positive readings from .5volts up to 4.3volts at WOT.

Power Balance Test #3– We are getting a drop of 450-500 rpms across all cylinders while under load (2500 rpms), by disabling Fuel injectors 1 by 1.

Fuel Injectors– Nice crisp clicking on each one which follow the rpms as they go low and high when revd. No difference b/w the 4.

Fuel pressure regulator test #2– slight smell of gas on vacuum tube, maybe one drip over a 5 minute run, if diaphragm is torn it is minimal and not affecting the mixture as unmetered fuel.

Fuel pressure– the new gauge is reading zero despite fuel OBVIOUSLY running, so we’re thinking dead gauge. Even fuel relief pressure valve does not release fuel on gauge, so exact psi is on hold till we get a new gauge (we used gauge on the intake and outake with both reading 0 during “on”, idle, and reved). Manually opened valve and fuel did spurt out of T connection during idle that was placed on intake line past fuel filter but before the rail. *EDIT BELOW on NEW TESTS*

Coolant- Removed radiator and flushed it as well as the engine block both ways, very little crud came out, though when I removed and cleaned the reservoir there was quite a bit of crude. Did 3 bleed cycles of about 20 minutes each and massaged the hoses (causes suction which can dislodge air bubbles) and got all the air out. Last run had zero air bubbles rise in funnel even after massaging the hoses vigorously (in, out, heater core in/out). Coolant hydrometer reads MUccchhhh Bettter now ;D.

Compression Test- Cylinder 2 did have some gas in it during the testing. Use a lil 10w-30 oil for wet testing in each cylinder. New spark plugs look good still.
Cylinder 1: Dry 180, Wet 185 psi
Cylinder 2: Dry 175, Wet 180 psi
Cylinder 3: Dry 170, Wet 185 psi
Cylinder 4: Dry 175, Wet 180 psi

Just as a reminder. Erratic idling after car warms up, once it warms up we get random and erratic idling. IF I turn off the car after the erratic idle and immediately restart the car it immediately jumps back into surging. The longer I wait for the restart the longer it takes to start surging again. High idle as of now when I first start the car (1500rpms to 2000 rpms) though it does hold steady during this period. During tests the idle sometimes will hold steady if I jump on the throttle for a bit and then go wacky or sometimes stall out, other times only surge from about 300-800 and other times 100rpms to about 1800rpms.

Battery Voltage is still reading 12.6volts.
Previously did a battery Voltage Leak test, not so much as a single spark.
Getting spark across all cylinders.
Vacuum test with carb cleaner and no change in rpms.
PCV is working and in good condition.
Fixed cracked or missing vacuum hoses.
All Fuses have been checked and only the AC 30amp fuse as an active short.
Fuel pump relay is working.
New Valve Cover Gasket, no leaks into spark plug holes.
IAT sensor working and clean.
New Timing belt and water pump
New warm up catalytic converter and rear converter
New NGK platinum tipped pluggs recommended by my manual, same as previous plugs (except platinum tipped).
Distributor has one tower contact chipped but otherwise decent condition.
New Air Filter

Originally a check engine light when I first had the issue but has not been one for over past 4 weeks. Only receive a check engine when I unplug the injectors (duh). so currently THERE IS NO MIL/CEL.

No more white smoke from exhaust, my feeling is it was either oil dripping from the previous bad valve gasket or antifreeze that dripped onto the exhaust.

List to do is wearing short.
1.Clean EGR
2. Check 02 Sensors
3.Replace Fuel Filter
4.Check timing of Engine
5. Check Valve Clearance

And first up is to Pull up stored codes

Thanks for Sticking with me guys, much appreciated and sorry this is kinda a text/test heavy car.

[TheArete]

as I said… we will agree to disagree. I can go to Craigslist right now and find quite a few used snap-on tools, or hundreds on Ebay but all this is besides the point… My point WAS with that particular example that if we are going to talk about something annoying on a car/truck show then we should be looking at MOTORZ and the ridiculous amount of overadvertising.

[TheArete]

I agree with SpawnedX you are probably going to have to do a little bit of Eyeballing. I was going to suggest weighing it but that requires knowing the specific gravity of what liquid you are weighing… but that would be a long and drawn out way to figure out something simple.

My suggestion… pick up a a glass graduated Beaker or cylinder for around ~8 bucks. You can buy one on Amazon, and measure ACCURATELY your gasoline that way.

Or go to Walmart… pick up a measuring cup and a tablespoon. A Tablespoon is about .5 ounces, so 8 tablespoon and you’re at 4 oz. 9 tablespoons and you are at 4.5 oz. A teaspoon is about 1.67oz just for comparison.

So if you let it run out into a graduated cylinder or into a measuring cup you can then Tablespoon it out into another container… if you’re about 9 tablespoons or more then you’re pump is producing appropriate amounts of gasoline… less and then you’re in trouble.

Just Make sure you measure at the bottom of the meniscus for the most accurate measurement of a graduated cylinder or beaker (though it most likely is too minute of a difference to really matter).

I’d check your plugs, wires, etc… first though. Good Luck!

[Author]

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