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Agreed, I remember in the service manual reading that it took 40 or something cycles for the PCM to determine operation was normal. If I wasn’t already in my pajamas and about to goto bed, I would walk out to the garage, open my service manual and check… 🙂
In any case, I use to guage mine off every 120-150 miles, each time I cleared the code, it would come back on (after the 120 or so miles).
Just out of curiosity, did you replace the Bosch with a DENSO, and that is why you want to verify this fix, or are you saying it just turned off with the current bosch in there? If so, my old bosch was doing the same thing, CEL would go off, stay off for 100 or so miles and then come back on…experience has taught me that was one sign of a “Lazy” O2 sensor 🙂
Son_of_Forneus: Glad to see you on here! Thanks for joining and posting!!!
Yes, that video was a Bosch replacement. And I have since learned some lessons on that, both good and bad. I need to do a follow up video to that, but I don’t want to ruffle feathers with other Dakota owners, some folks have had great luck with Bosch and others wouldn’t even consider them.
If you go OEM, buy DENSON, or at the very least NTK sensors.
As for the scanner, I bought an Actron CP9580 and that thing is awesome. Granted, my comparison is based on my old “code reader” which simply displayed DTC codes.The actron has a bit of a learning curve, as it can show live data, which in my case just opens up all kinds of trouble! 🙂
Here is the link from amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP9580-Sca … 392&sr=8-3
As for your issue, I told you these guys were awesome! You can read about my learnig lesson on that 1 year old bosch sensore here:
http://www.ericthecarguy.com/forum/topics.aspx?ID=1920Doing a solid inspection of the wiring is a good start, heck even a continuity and voltage drop test to make sure the sensor is getting the info and power it needs would be a better start. But I am taking bets now that it is an exhaust leak and/or a bad 02 sensor.
Quoted From Beefy:
The engine is free to turn when a car is in park. The torque converter is a fluid coupler. It will not engage the transmission with only a few hundred rpms. Otherwise, how would you start the engine? You don’t put it in neutral. That’s why you have to push in the clutch or put the car in neutral on older model standard trans cars/trucks that don’t have a NSS.
And that is why this forum is AWESOME! Thanks Beefy, very very good point…there you go again with stating the obvious for me 🙂
Hmmm, interesting question.
I have always used an impact to remove them, but to put one on, always use a torque wrench.
Heck, there have been times that without an impact and blow torch, I would NEVER have gotten some bolts removed…I have nightmares about my cousins Pontiac Bonneville SC. 🙂
Putting one on with an impact could damage the hydraulic dampened pulleys out there, but I am more concerned about what the mechanic was trying to convey.
Can you ask this mechanic to explain a little more in detail? Was he referring to taking one off or putting one on?
Somebody correct me, if I am wrong, but as long as the vehicle is in gear, Park for automatics, or 1st for manuals, nothing is going to spin (ie: connecting rods).
I don’t know what your mechanic is talking about, he must have had a bad experience one time, or a good reason for telling you that.
Howdy gang!
Whoa…you pros are forever in my hall of fame book. I cannot imagine taking on a job like this and having a supervisor or service writer riding me to diagnose and fix these issues in under an hour or less. This issue took me almost two weekends, and I still have panic attacks over whether the job was done correctly! In either case, if I ever get the chance, I will gladly shake your hands and buy you a “beverage” of your choice!
On to the fix:
Lastnight (02/18/2012), after getting off work, I fired up the shop light and started replacing my ground cables. During last week, when my cables came in, I would spend an hour or two each night soldering the ring terminals on and cutting the lengths of wire I needed. All said and done, I replaced a total of 12 ground cables, although my service manual states that I have 13 of them. The lucky 13th is attached to the firewall and heatercore above the HVAC unit, behind the dash. And yes, I do have to replace my leaking heatercore, so that will be another project, this time with video and photos, but when it warms up a bit 🙂
With the cables replaced, I decided to start the vehicle and recheck the readings on my scanner. Two immediate differences I noticed, the interior lights, dash lights and radio “SPRUNG” to life! Before, they would slowly brighten up to life, but this time, the instance I turned the key past the “On” position…BAM, everything lit up like Christmas. T)Next came the starting, OH MAN, what a sweet sweet sound the dodges make when that starter kicks over…night and day difference. But back to the diagnostic stuff, the truck running and the scanner logging and showing me voltage readings, my Bank 2 Sensor 2 was still pegged at 1v, the other three were switching properly, so I took it for a test drive to get the cats heated up, and noticed about 15 minutes into the drive, the bank 2 sensor 2 started reacting and reading anywhere from .1v to 1v, but never in conjunction with Bank 2 sensor 1. For instance, at one point B2S1 was reading .500 – .700 while B2S2 would be reading ~.800 – 1v
I took the truck out on the highway and around the neighborhood for a good 30 – 40 minutes, then came home to start my voltage drop test(s). Before doing so, I wanted to make sure my cat was ok, so with the truck running, I messured the inlet portion, of the cat. which read between 250-265 and the outlet hovered around 340-355 (depending on where my temp gun pointed). From what I read, a difference of 100-150 degrees is normal and within operating specs of a catalytic converter. I did not perform a pressure test, as I do not have a guage to plug into the bank 1 O2 sensor bung…but I was happy with the temp test.
Now, with that out of the way, I decided to do a voltage drop test, like the one I performed in the beginning of this post (negative lead of meter on negative post of battery, and the positive lead of the meter touching various points of the engine). I am happy to report, that I am now getting anywhere between ~.3v to ~.7v (at some points I did get reading around 1.5-2.5 volts)….much much better than the ridiculous readings I got previously!
On to the 02 sensor…Chrysler engineers should have bamboo shoved between thier finger nails for designing the placement of the O2 pigtails…they were a BEAR to find, but once I did, I was able to do a continuity test of each wire to make sure there was not a break, it passed (on both sensors for Bank 2, passenger side). The voltage drop on the Bank2 Sensor2 was off, and had me triple guessing my results. The lead from the pcm was giving me roughly ~.4-.5v, and I am not sure my leads were completely secured to the sensor end. Without having a proper way of testing the sensor and how it reacts to heat being applied and removed, I simply replaced the bosch sensor with a DENSO I had purchase the week before, in the event the O2 sensor turned out to be completely hosed.
All that to say, the O2 sensor was crapped out. I know I missed some key diagnostic parts when metering my O2 sensor, and testing the wires, so don’t hate me too much, but I did learn that the sensor may have failed due to an exhaust leak, or inferior quality, and I learned the importance of grounding when it comes to vehicle electrical systems.
Once the new sensor was in place, I started my scanner up and watched it, it was responsive the moment my engine started, and started reading within range of B2S1 after a 20 minute test drive. Before the cats heated up, I was seeing that it read ~.30v-.50v from sensor 1. Once the cat got hot, I was seeing a reading of .200v-.600v lower than sensor 1, and it varied from wide open throttle and light cruising, but those numbers gave me more confidence in my cat being ok, and not being clogged.
So, I pulled into 7-11, got some coffee, and drove the truck around for about an hour, went north, saw some of the country, got on the highway and played around with different speeds V-)…and I am happy to report, after about 80-90 miles, no check engine light, and my sensors (banks 1 & 2) continued to play nice with each other!
Thank you guys for your insight and help on diagnosing this issue, as I have said before, this forum and you are priceless! Thank you again, and if you ever need anything from me, please do not hesitate to ask!
I read as much as I could, and there was nothing I could find on “voting” rules. I think our problem is that we are to honest.
If I were a devious individual, I would certainly find ways to post submissions for Eric. But then again, what is a “win” if gained by dishonorable means? With that said, every morning I see that I can vote again (with my youtube account), so I vote once with my account, then log out and vote again. Then I pick up my phone and do the same thing, then when I get to work, rinse and repeat 🙂 Eric should be getting 6-8 votes out of me a day 😉
Whatever the outcome, I know we still have the best group of people, and an awesome friend and mentor in EricTheCarGuy!
I agree with the LIVE DATA comments, I went from a simple code reader, to my Actron 9850 http://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP9580-Sca … B003IOITRG A night and day difference! I like it so far, but I would really like to have one that can do bi-directional and allow me to test components on a vehicle (ie: EVAP/locks/sensors….) But those are north of $2000, so it will be a LONG LONG while before this DIY can convince his wallet to cough it up.
You can watch my unboxing of my actron if you are thinking of getting one: http://youtu.be/N6N60GnabCE
Quoted From SpawnedX:
Your local Wal*Mart should have a measuring cup with both ounces and cups on it.
Good point, you think they would carry something that would hold exactly 3.4oz or show the lines for .4 oz or if the test shows 3.0oz – 3.5oz I should call it good?
Good point yarddog1950! Great eye on reading those instructions, I went back and read them for a second time, and now understand what the instructiosn really want. I was confused on the 3.4oz at 5 seconds, but that is not the case.
I plan on going through the list of things to check, I imagine it is a couple of things, for years now I have been good about putting sta-bil in the gas when I knew it was going to sit for longer than 30 days. And I always go out and start it up once a week to let it idle, and if not too cold or wet outside take it down the street.
But I agree, I will check the basics first and report back what I find!
Quoted From Beefy:
Wow, that’s crazy man. I’m surprised the truck starts if you are dropping 11-12v just on yer ground side. It definitely sounds like you are onto one problem, if not the cause for the o2 sensor. But you never know, if you have a funky ground, you will get all kinda wierd stuff happening. Good luck, and keep us posted!
Beefy: No issues with starting, but when I bought it, I did notice weak starting, not horrible, but I can tell it doesn’t have the “umph” most dodge vehicles sound like when they start. I just wrote it off to a bad battery or starter, and would have investigated after finishing my list of fixes. Some things that are starting to make sense, now that I noticed the grounding issues, are bad radio reception, weak power locks and windows and just various other little things… I am REAL interested in how re-grounding my truck is going to “WAKE” things up, and possibly make my truck happier, or open up other issues. 🙂
Quoted From dreamer2355:
I totally agree. I am assuming you did your voltage drop tests on a loaded circuit aka KOEO?
This is another good video on voltage drop testing – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytrcqM8w … E0k7ID21Xw
dreamer2355: Thank you for the link! Yes, my test was KOEO, but not in the crank position. That is why I thought my DVOM was bad (it is a harbor freight model, and going on 6 years old). So, after testing with the test light, I knew something wasn’t right with my ground 🙂
I called an electrician buddy, and asked if I could borrow one of his DVOMs after church tomorrow. He has a couple Fluke models that will allow me to read into the millivolts, record data and get some MIN/MAX values, and I can get some really great numbers. I will use that DVOM for the “before/after” test so I can see how the new grounding cables help.
After talking with him for a while, he jokingly said “Patrick, you need to douse that truck in gasoline and strike a match to it, and walk away…” That got me to thinking, other folks are going to read my posts about my truck and possibly think the same thing. So I wanted to take a moment and explain why I am spending so much effort on it:
1) I paid 1,400.00 for it, so far, I have 600.00 into it (after initial repairs when I bought it, and with the new cables)
2) An AWESOME learning experience!
3) I love the way it looks, rides and love the fact that it is a mid-sized quad cab V8 truckI also will not put more into than it is worth, but NADA/KBB has it anywhere from 3,200 – 4,600. So I still have some money I can put into it, before I really start taking a loss. But then again, vehicles ARE NOT investments…so, this will more than likely become my children’s “first” car, when they hit 16 🙂
In any case, I will keep everyone posted, hopefully the cables come in next week, and by next weekend I can start to get some video and photos of the grounds and power cables!
Thanks again guys for the input and following along, it is a great confidence booster to know this forum is here and just a mouse click away.
Have a good night and weekend!
Update:
Today when I got home from work, I went outside and started with a voltage drop test. The very first test I did was to check for any open circuits on my ground side, since I noticed one of my grounding straps was frayed.Turns out, my DVOM was reading volts from 11.89 – 12.10 volts when running my positive lead to the engine/frame/body panel.
Check my procedure, but I think I am right:
I connected my DVOM ground lead to my negative post on the battery, and then just randomly touched my positive lead to various metal parts within the engine bay, and got voltage readings.
I even thought my DVOM may be broken, so I used a test light, and sure enough, the test light being connected to the ground post on the battery, would light up when I would touch any metal portion on the engine (with some exceptions), and various other metal parts in the engine bay. At some points the light was brighter than others, but I believe this was due to the grounding strap issues.
So, for giggles, I hunted around and found three (3) BROKEN grounding straps. Two were connected from ENGINE to FIREWALL and one was connected from FRAME to EXHAUST (using a c-clamp). There are 5 others that are in ROUGH shape, frayed and chewed up.
I went to autozone and purchased their LAST battery ground cable (8AWG)…and got ripped on the price…$16 bucks!!! Needless to say, I was able to make two grounding straps from that one. But, to test my theory, I stole a grounding strap from my wife’s Volvo…stupid easy to get to, and took only about 5 minutes to remove, and used all three to replace my broken ones on my truck.
After that, the same voltage drop test, yielded volt readings of 4-6 volts instead of the 11-12 I was getting before, so almost half, I was happy, but still had to return my wife’s ground cable…I don’t want any electronics “starving” on that beast! W;)
At this point, it was getting dark, and Dallas has decided to get REALLY REALLY cold outside, so at the point I could no longer feel my feet or hands, I called it a night.
I also jumped on ebay and found some 0/1 AWG wire and some nice solder end ring terminals and battery terminals. As soon as those come in, I am going to replace ALL my ground cables, clean the connecting points, battery terminals (the ones on there now are sad and not secure), and replace ALL the power wires (Alternator to distribution block to battery to starter) with the new 0/1 AWG and get this electric trickle to a FULL flood gates for my poor truck. 0/1 AWG may seem like over kill, but for 90 bucks for 100ft of black audio and 25ft of red audio and the ring terminals, I though why not, if anything I can sell what is left over.
In any case, not a whole lot done today, but at least I have some solid direction to go in, once the electrical is up to par, I am going to perform the fuel pressure test, compression test and leak down…just to rule out any internal mechanical issue causing the RICH exhaust, and then continue with the voltage drop on the O2 sensor.
Awesome! Thank you for sharing, I have been looking at the same set, I need to get a set of snap ring pliers for an upcoming project.
Quoted From Beefy:
My bad, curiousity killed the cat.
No worries man, I am just as anxious! I have to go into work tomorrow (Saturday) from 7AM-4PM, but as soon as I get home, I am ripping into my truck. I think I will get the volt drop testing out of the way, and check my ground straps, then move on to leak down test, compression test, fuel pressure and ignition testing. I swear, every now and then I can fill that thing missing, but it is very slight, and I don’t want to rule out the O2 sensor may be a culprit.
I will post back saturday night what I get done and figured out.
I feel for you, with bills and a family, I know it must be daunting. I think Dreamer2355 is on to something, branching out and start your own business, or finding another place to work. Although, what about this, how about posting an ad on craig’s list to teach a “maintenance” seminar. You know, something like $40 bucks and I will teach you how to change your own oil, and another course could be $40 bucks and you could “show” someone how to change spark plugs…just a thought, you get 3 or 4 folks and that would be some money for a little bit of work. I would be happy to pay money to have an hour or so of an ASE certified tech’s time.
There are plenty of folks out there, like me, that appreciate the work you guys do, and would love to have the chance to learn from you. Heck, that’s why I am grateful for this forum and ETCG’s contributions!