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[Dwayne]

[quote=”Tedybear315″ post=110425]http://facultyfiles.deanza.edu/gems/waltonjohn/Theftdeterentapplicationupda.pdf

http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=853

http://www.flatrater.com/Friends/CS1/CompSense.htm

http://www.greatautohelp.com/auto_basics/Ecotec-2200-4-Cylinder-Ignition.html

Consider that everyone’s homework assignment. (Just kidding)

Good lord’n butter Mort!! I think I got a headache just reading up on how this thing functions. Where’s Scanner Danner when you need him!!??

Okay, panic mode aside. This is a whole lot of new tech that I’ve no clue about. (At least I’ll admit it) I’d start by finishing up the fuel angle and getting that system down pat, so that is removed as a variable.

The “Flatrater” page is excellent. It explains a lot about the theory of operation on this. Hopefully the fuel issues are the cause of the problems. If not? Then the theory behind how this pig works should be helpful.

S-[/quote]
Yep, I was thing the same thing lol
ScannerDanner…is cool

[Dwayne]

[quote=”Tedybear315″ post=110425]http://facultyfiles.deanza.edu/gems/waltonjohn/Theftdeterentapplicationupda.pdf

http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=853

http://www.flatrater.com/Friends/CS1/CompSense.htm

http://www.greatautohelp.com/auto_basics/Ecotec-2200-4-Cylinder-Ignition.html

Consider that everyone’s homework assignment. (Just kidding)

Good lord’n butter Mort!! I think I got a headache just reading up on how this thing functions. Where’s Scanner Danner when you need him!!??

Okay, panic mode aside. This is a whole lot of new tech that I’ve no clue about. (At least I’ll admit it) I’d start by finishing up the fuel angle and getting that system down pat, so that is removed as a variable.

The “Flatrater” page is excellent. It explains a lot about the theory of operation on this. Hopefully the fuel issues are the cause of the problems. If not? Then the theory behind how this pig works should be helpful.

S-[/quote]
Yep, I was thing the same thing lol
ScannerDanner…is cool

[Dwayne]

[quote=”Tedybear315″ post=110420]Fuel Filter is a can type. Runs about $10 bucks from RockAuto. If that’s never been changed before? Let me put it this way. Designers ‘claim’ these are lifetime filters. Last time I changed one on a car with over 100k on it? The filter, when turned upside-down was pouring out black sludge. Totally putrid and plugged up.

The filter at the pump itself, that’s the filter ‘sock’. Yes that can be plugged up with dirt and ‘tank gunk’. I’d personally chase after the can type fuel filter–it’s just in front of the fuel tank under the car.

Question: Where is the fuel filter located on a Chevy Cavalier?

Answer:

On my 2004 Cavalier it is in front of the gas tank under the body. If you put the car up on ramps or stands and get under it from the back it is easily visable.
AnswerI just changed one today (5/28/05) on a 2002 Cavalier. A few feet from the end of the car, located in the middle (basically right after the trunk). To change it is pretty easy if you take the plastic clips sort of off (this gave me LOTS of trouble but now I can take off this end in 2 seconds). Just pinch the plastic clip (green on my car) & then push the platic clip almost out. Then pull that side out (watch out – you will have gas come out). Then unscrew the other side. I had to take off another part to unscrew this side because of little room. Also – BEFORE you start – take off the gas cap, jackstand the car & I also removed the fuel pump fuse (located in the engine, driver side).

Found this as well:

http://www.ipatools.com/products/index.php/ipa-9038.html

It plugs into the relay socket and just has a ‘toggle’ switch. It bypasses the computer control over the relay and forces the pump to always ‘run’. If the computer is commanding the fuel pump to shut down–thus causing the car to stall/quit? Install this and flip the switch ‘on’. You can probably make one of these yourself using a set of lug terminals, heavy gauge wire and a toggle switch.

S-[/quote]
Tedybear315
Thanks for your input and time,and the info. I appreciate it:)
I will ask the owner to get a quality external fuel filter today ( he is a Co worker/close friend, and buys the parts I need, when needed). I don’t know if it has ever been changed, but will get changed, and I’ll put a changed date on the filter for future referance.
I will update after that filter change

Now if that doesn’t solve the issue. I will continue to troubleshooting of the pump and electrical.
I think I’m in testing in the right areas

Btw the ignition system on this car is called CSI…compression sense ignition, which there is no information in my cheep repair manual for testing.
It took me days of searching on the net to find something about this type of ignition system, but I haven’t found how to test it without expensive equipment
If you come across any testing info on this system without expensive equipment. I would appreciate see that

Thanks again

[Dwayne]

[quote=”Tedybear315″ post=110420]Fuel Filter is a can type. Runs about $10 bucks from RockAuto. If that’s never been changed before? Let me put it this way. Designers ‘claim’ these are lifetime filters. Last time I changed one on a car with over 100k on it? The filter, when turned upside-down was pouring out black sludge. Totally putrid and plugged up.

The filter at the pump itself, that’s the filter ‘sock’. Yes that can be plugged up with dirt and ‘tank gunk’. I’d personally chase after the can type fuel filter–it’s just in front of the fuel tank under the car.

Question: Where is the fuel filter located on a Chevy Cavalier?

Answer:

On my 2004 Cavalier it is in front of the gas tank under the body. If you put the car up on ramps or stands and get under it from the back it is easily visable.
AnswerI just changed one today (5/28/05) on a 2002 Cavalier. A few feet from the end of the car, located in the middle (basically right after the trunk). To change it is pretty easy if you take the plastic clips sort of off (this gave me LOTS of trouble but now I can take off this end in 2 seconds). Just pinch the plastic clip (green on my car) & then push the platic clip almost out. Then pull that side out (watch out – you will have gas come out). Then unscrew the other side. I had to take off another part to unscrew this side because of little room. Also – BEFORE you start – take off the gas cap, jackstand the car & I also removed the fuel pump fuse (located in the engine, driver side).

Found this as well:

http://www.ipatools.com/products/index.php/ipa-9038.html

It plugs into the relay socket and just has a ‘toggle’ switch. It bypasses the computer control over the relay and forces the pump to always ‘run’. If the computer is commanding the fuel pump to shut down–thus causing the car to stall/quit? Install this and flip the switch ‘on’. You can probably make one of these yourself using a set of lug terminals, heavy gauge wire and a toggle switch.

S-[/quote]
Tedybear315
Thanks for your input and time,and the info. I appreciate it:)
I will ask the owner to get a quality external fuel filter today ( he is a Co worker/close friend, and buys the parts I need, when needed). I don’t know if it has ever been changed, but will get changed, and I’ll put a changed date on the filter for future referance.
I will update after that filter change

Now if that doesn’t solve the issue. I will continue to troubleshooting of the pump and electrical.
I think I’m in testing in the right areas

Btw the ignition system on this car is called CSI…compression sense ignition, which there is no information in my cheep repair manual for testing.
It took me days of searching on the net to find something about this type of ignition system, but I haven’t found how to test it without expensive equipment
If you come across any testing info on this system without expensive equipment. I would appreciate see that

Thanks again

[Dwayne]

[quote=”EricTheCarGuy” post=110323]A crank sensor problem doesn’t explain the fuel pressure changes you described in your OP. I’m not saying rule it out, but if the stalling issue is caused by a lack of fuel pressure, perhaps we should keep our focus there. You might even consider test driving with the gauge hooked up so you can monitor it when the problem occurs. That said, does this vehicle have a fuel filter? If so I’d recommend changing it. A partially clogged fuel filter may cause the symptoms you describe. BTW the check ball in the fuel pump would cause the pressure to bleed off when it’s bad.

Keep us posted on your progress.[/quote]
Eric, thanks for your input:) I agree with what your saying. I have been doing my current testing in my back yard under a huge shade tree:), I don’t have a garage anymore:(. The testing I’m currently doing, is being done with the fuel pump pressure gauge hooked up, and the engine running at idle,and when It quits suddenly, I look at the fuel pressure gauge, and the pressure is within specs.

When the engine quits, I have no shaking or weird noises from the engine, almost like the electrical is cut to the engine, it’s a quiet, quick sudden shut down. I do here the fuel pump relay click, when the engine quits, maybe it’s resetting?

The fuel pump relay temperature is 106* when the engine quits, I wonder if it’s overheating from the fuel pump? idk…This fuel system is a different setup than what I’m use to messing with. The pump is energized with the key on, then after start the computer takes over the operation of the fuel pump.

If the computer controls the operation of the pump,after initial start, what is shutting down the engine, thus tripping the relay? maybe the pump is overheating at idle, but not at higher RPMS?

More testing is needed. I just hope I have the skills to find this issue…and I’m ” Staying Dirty ” on this one…

I’m going see if I can get my stethoscope somewhere on that fuel tank while the engine is running, and maybe I can hear some sort of clue that the pump is starting to fail

fuel filter? I’ll have to check into that. I think it is on the bottom of the pump

[Dwayne]

[quote=”EricTheCarGuy” post=110323]A crank sensor problem doesn’t explain the fuel pressure changes you described in your OP. I’m not saying rule it out, but if the stalling issue is caused by a lack of fuel pressure, perhaps we should keep our focus there. You might even consider test driving with the gauge hooked up so you can monitor it when the problem occurs. That said, does this vehicle have a fuel filter? If so I’d recommend changing it. A partially clogged fuel filter may cause the symptoms you describe. BTW the check ball in the fuel pump would cause the pressure to bleed off when it’s bad.

Keep us posted on your progress.[/quote]
Eric, thanks for your input:) I agree with what your saying. I have been doing my current testing in my back yard under a huge shade tree:), I don’t have a garage anymore:(. The testing I’m currently doing, is being done with the fuel pump pressure gauge hooked up, and the engine running at idle,and when It quits suddenly, I look at the fuel pressure gauge, and the pressure is within specs.

When the engine quits, I have no shaking or weird noises from the engine, almost like the electrical is cut to the engine, it’s a quiet, quick sudden shut down. I do here the fuel pump relay click, when the engine quits, maybe it’s resetting?

The fuel pump relay temperature is 106* when the engine quits, I wonder if it’s overheating from the fuel pump? idk…This fuel system is a different setup than what I’m use to messing with. The pump is energized with the key on, then after start the computer takes over the operation of the fuel pump.

If the computer controls the operation of the pump,after initial start, what is shutting down the engine, thus tripping the relay? maybe the pump is overheating at idle, but not at higher RPMS?

More testing is needed. I just hope I have the skills to find this issue…and I’m ” Staying Dirty ” on this one…

I’m going see if I can get my stethoscope somewhere on that fuel tank while the engine is running, and maybe I can hear some sort of clue that the pump is starting to fail

fuel filter? I’ll have to check into that. I think it is on the bottom of the pump

[Dwayne]

[quote=”Tedybear315″ post=110214]I’m going to go out on a limb–as this issue is one that the VW’s I work with also share.

It’s caused a lot on those cars by a defective crank sensor. Could also be a cam sensor as well on some engines. I’m not sure on yours, just floating it as a possible issue.

I’d check the grounds–as that’s very possible– And I’d also look into testing the crank and/or cam sensor- Which ever one this car uses for the engine RPM. If the sensor is easy to get to? Maybe having the car just sit there at idle and give the sensor a very light ‘tap’ with the butt end of a screw driver?

S-

edit: at times if the sensor is vibrated just right it can drop the signal to the computer. If the computer sees the engine has no RPM? Then it will throw the system into ‘shut down’. as in–no fuel pump or ignition. It thinks the engine stalled out. Tapping the sensor with a screwdriver handle can cause the issue to happen on ‘command’ if it’s bad enough.

I’m only throwing it out there, as I am not sure about your system.[/quote]

Thanks for the input:) have thought this, because it too me seems like a crank sensor, and this crank sensor is built into the ECU. It uses some sort of different type of signal built in, so i’m off to search that.
thanks again…several more options to check into
it sucks to have to do this diagnosis the old school way, I have no diagnosis equipment, except for a code reader with live data, but the live data is limited, and hard to understand some of it without a technical course

[Dwayne]

[quote=”Tedybear315″ post=110214]I’m going to go out on a limb–as this issue is one that the VW’s I work with also share.

It’s caused a lot on those cars by a defective crank sensor. Could also be a cam sensor as well on some engines. I’m not sure on yours, just floating it as a possible issue.

I’d check the grounds–as that’s very possible– And I’d also look into testing the crank and/or cam sensor- Which ever one this car uses for the engine RPM. If the sensor is easy to get to? Maybe having the car just sit there at idle and give the sensor a very light ‘tap’ with the butt end of a screw driver?

S-

edit: at times if the sensor is vibrated just right it can drop the signal to the computer. If the computer sees the engine has no RPM? Then it will throw the system into ‘shut down’. as in–no fuel pump or ignition. It thinks the engine stalled out. Tapping the sensor with a screwdriver handle can cause the issue to happen on ‘command’ if it’s bad enough.

I’m only throwing it out there, as I am not sure about your system.[/quote]

Thanks for the input:) have thought this, because it too me seems like a crank sensor, and this crank sensor is built into the ECU. It uses some sort of different type of signal built in, so i’m off to search that.
thanks again…several more options to check into
it sucks to have to do this diagnosis the old school way, I have no diagnosis equipment, except for a code reader with live data, but the live data is limited, and hard to understand some of it without a technical course

[Dwayne]

[quote=”barneyb” post=110205]There was an owner posting here a few months ago concerning a Mustang that would show the thief light run rough and sometimes quit. I wrote him back saying if the thief light is coming on that means the computer is quitting – clean your grounds. Fords are known for bad grounds. He did and that fixed it.

So, anyway, lucky suggestion but something to consider.[/quote]
Thanks I’ll check into that
But theft light on when it just quits
It just quits lol

[Dwayne]

[quote=”barneyb” post=110205]There was an owner posting here a few months ago concerning a Mustang that would show the thief light run rough and sometimes quit. I wrote him back saying if the thief light is coming on that means the computer is quitting – clean your grounds. Fords are known for bad grounds. He did and that fixed it.

So, anyway, lucky suggestion but something to consider.[/quote]
Thanks I’ll check into that
But theft light on when it just quits
It just quits lol

[Dwayne]

[quote=”college man” post=109969]seeing you have a p0300 random misfire we need to determine what
cylinder is down on power. Try doing a power balance test with the
injectors.thanks! I will do that test On this motor one ignition coil fires two cylinders which
is 50% of the spark to the engine.the ignition coils are not visible, they are encased in a long black rectangle plastic housing, and the ignition module sits on top, so I can’t find any info on how to test such a system, any info would be appreciated on this one test all 4 of the wires with a spark
tester for spark. I believe I can do this, just have to remove the coil pack for all 4 cylinders, as one unit, and put spark plugs in each boot, to test also these ignition coils and control modules sit on
a plate which need to be clean of rust as these are your ground.the coil pack is plastic, and bolts to top of rocker cover. The ignition module is a separate unit that sits in it’s own nest, and screws to the top of the long coil pack. I would appreciate any information on how to test coil resistance, and how to test the ignition module, below is a pic of a Ecotec 2.2 with this type of ignition system I’m referring to

http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/solving-automotive-no-start-problems

http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/solving-automotive-performance-issues%5B/quote%5D
[IMG]http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/2003_Pontiac_Sunfire_Ecotec_zpse1ea6e70.jpg[/IMG]

Now the car will start and run, with excellent vacuum according to my vacuum gauge, but it will now just quit running without warning, and I here the fuel pump relay click when it quits. To get the engine restarted I have to turn the key completely off, then back on, so it will start and run. The fuel pressure is per specs, and I have installed a new fpr. I tested the fuel pump volume today, and it will pump 1QT of gas in 30 seconds, but I could only do this test with engine running, not by just truning the key on, because the computer takes over the operation of the fuel pump after initial prime and start

[Dwayne]

[quote=”college man” post=109969]seeing you have a p0300 random misfire we need to determine what
cylinder is down on power. Try doing a power balance test with the
injectors.thanks! I will do that test On this motor one ignition coil fires two cylinders which
is 50% of the spark to the engine.the ignition coils are not visible, they are encased in a long black rectangle plastic housing, and the ignition module sits on top, so I can’t find any info on how to test such a system, any info would be appreciated on this one test all 4 of the wires with a spark
tester for spark. I believe I can do this, just have to remove the coil pack for all 4 cylinders, as one unit, and put spark plugs in each boot, to test also these ignition coils and control modules sit on
a plate which need to be clean of rust as these are your ground.the coil pack is plastic, and bolts to top of rocker cover. The ignition module is a separate unit that sits in it’s own nest, and screws to the top of the long coil pack. I would appreciate any information on how to test coil resistance, and how to test the ignition module, below is a pic of a Ecotec 2.2 with this type of ignition system I’m referring to

http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/solving-automotive-no-start-problems

http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/solving-automotive-performance-issues%5B/quote%5D
[IMG]http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/2003_Pontiac_Sunfire_Ecotec_zpse1ea6e70.jpg[/IMG]

Now the car will start and run, with excellent vacuum according to my vacuum gauge, but it will now just quit running without warning, and I here the fuel pump relay click when it quits. To get the engine restarted I have to turn the key completely off, then back on, so it will start and run. The fuel pressure is per specs, and I have installed a new fpr. I tested the fuel pump volume today, and it will pump 1QT of gas in 30 seconds, but I could only do this test with engine running, not by just truning the key on, because the computer takes over the operation of the fuel pump after initial prime and start

[Dwayne]

Okay, update…I went for a test drive for about 25 miles, some highway, some city stop n go.

I had city driving problems thus far. The car quit without warning when coming to a complete stop at traffic light, and one stop sigh. In both cases the car didn’t give any warning that it was going to cut off, it just did it.

I couldn’t here a fuel pump noise after the engine shut off, so I put it in park quickly turned key off then key on, heard the fuel pump prime, and started the engine no problem. I didn’t have any rough idle, missing, or nothing that was alerting me that she was going to quit. I did make it home:0

Now I need to move forward and continue to troubleshoot further, at least I got rid of a fire hazard, and rough idle

[Dwayne]

Okay, update…I went for a test drive for about 25 miles, some highway, some city stop n go.

I had city driving problems thus far. The car quit without warning when coming to a complete stop at traffic light, and one stop sigh. In both cases the car didn’t give any warning that it was going to cut off, it just did it.

I couldn’t here a fuel pump noise after the engine shut off, so I put it in park quickly turned key off then key on, heard the fuel pump prime, and started the engine no problem. I didn’t have any rough idle, missing, or nothing that was alerting me that she was going to quit. I did make it home:0

Now I need to move forward and continue to troubleshoot further, at least I got rid of a fire hazard, and rough idle

[Dwayne]

Well, I just changed the fpr, and the car runs better already. I’m letting it sit for a while with pressure gauge hooked up, and I’m keeping my fingers crossed that the pressure is maintained, and it doesn’t all leak out

I will report back on my findings

[Author]

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