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Hello fopeano,
I was doing allot of research myself about these units. I have read in many Nissan/Infiniti and Jeep/Dodge forums about these CVT units. Many people have said (including the one tech at my local dealership) that it does contain rubber molecules as a friction modifier/belt protectant. Of course I went with what a Chrysler Tech had stated which was then confirmed through research on forums. It was also stated that the one clutch is a variable geometry pulley type that actually increases in size as the speed increases to make it feel like it is shifting gears. Now I am not 100% positive about that but it is been mentioned on numerous occasions in the Jeep Patriot forums as well as Dodge Caliber and Nissan forums. I am just trying to learn as much about these units as possible and am open to any information others can educate me on. I know they are much easier then the standard transmissions to work on. And they are very similar to the way a snowmobiles clutch is set-up ecept for the steel belt versus a rubber belt. As I have stated, I rebuilt (actually helped; my cousin and I did it) the CVT in my aunt’s Dodge Caliber due to the belt breaking. Unfortunately she did not have the lifetime warranty as it was purchased secondhand. I will add some links to different information I have also found and what has been stated in forums. Maybe you could culminate all this information and ask the instructor you speak of. I do agree it seems they are being very tight lipped about these units fluids composition. I do want to posses as much knowledge on these units as possible considering there are two Chrysler Jatco’s in my families vehicle list. There are 3 types of cvt’s: Hydraulic, mechanical, and electrical. The Jatco’s are hydraulic if I remember correctly. 🙂
I also know these units can have up to 1000 psi while in operation. So making sure the knowledge possesed on these units is critical. That is why they have the fluid formulated the way they do.
Links for your reading pleasure:
http://forums.nicoclub.com/cvt-tranny-with-no-dipstick-t294397.html (rubber mentioned in fluid)
http://www.google.com/patents/US20130065802
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/at/2012/476028/ (“In Figure 4, the CVT has higher efficiency at lower speed, lower CVT ratio, and medium torque. to represent distributed CVT ratios 0.5 to 2.5. The efficiency at any ratio in between is obtained by using linear interpolation. The efficiency of a steel-belt CVT with special oil containing rubber molecules to lock the belt with the pulley can reach up to 97%, similar to that of a manual transmission [4].”)
http://www.hi-tecoils.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Honda_CVT_Transmission_Fluid_Nov17.pdf
http://www.scientific.net/AMR.915-916.183
http://theanxiousthoughts.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-technical-side-of-continuously.html
http://www.caliberforumz.com/archive/index.php/t-24795.html (micro pellets of rubber discussed)
http://www.nissanmurano.org/forums/61-general-discussions/1540-cvt-operating-charactistics-print.html (rubber molecules mentioned)
http://forum.autoworld.com.my/index.php?showtopic=71827&st=10 (rubber molecules discussed; “To smoothen the transmission, a special CVT fluid is needed, that which contains rubber molecules. It is these rubber molecules that protect the CVT against premature CVT heaven. I initially also thought that the CVT belt was made of rubber but was corrected by one of
my well-informed City club members.” Talking about racing cvt’s)http://www.engineerlive.com/content/20649 (“For automotive applications, DAF was the first manufacturer to make a real success of CVT technology in the late 1950s, with its small passenger car that utilised the company’s Variomatic CVT. This transmission was based on a rubber belt running between variable diameter pulleys. CVTs with more robust steel belts have subsequently been used in vehicles such as the Ford Fiesta and Fiat Uno. Other automotive manufacturers that have launched models with a CVT of one type or another include Subaru, Nissan, Honda, Audi and BMW.” “Another area of interest currently lies in the Formula 1 (F1) race car industry. Perhaps unusually, the CVT-related technologies being developed by F1 teams have the potential to be rolled out into production vehicles relatively quickly. Formula 1’s governing body, FIA (Federation International de l’Automobile), has decreed that from the start of the 2009 season teams will be permitted to use kinetic energy recovery systems (KERS) for the first time. And one way to implement a KERS system is to connect a flywheel-based energy storage unit via a CVT, as is the case with the system being developed by transmission specialist Xtrac. The Xtrac system utilises a Torotrak full-toroidal traction-drive infinitely variable transmission (IVT) technology, which is a variation on the CVT concept.” )
http://www.gulf.nl/fileadmin/user_upload/sheets_EN/03_transmission/safety/2455%20Gulf%20CVT%20Fluid.pdf (Even the SD sheets fail to mention the actual composition of the fluid.)
http://www.amsoil.com/msds/CVT.pdf
And yes, I think we did hi-jack the op’s thread! :silly: BUT if it can help people with their vehicles I hope the OP doesn’t mind. SInce these units are being increasingly more common in modern vehicles any and all information we have is only a benefit for us, not a detriment.
[quote=”Mazda3″ post=128971]well, I will try to ask another question about KS.
Is there a little chance the knock sensor actually is not damaged? Why after a four consecutive re-starts of the engine (when engine already is warmed up) “check engine” disappears? Does mean the knock sensor works normally on warmed up engine?
Somewhere I’d read after four restarts of the engine if the ECM does not detect malfunction in KS, it just clear error from memory and the car began to work in “normal” mode. If KS is really damaged should CEL lights on the dashboard always?[/quote]“Knock Sensors generate a voltage when vibration is applied to them utilizing the piezoelectric effect. The generated voltage is proportional to the acceleration of the vehicle. Due to the vibration, a counter weight inside the sensor is applying pressure on the piezo element, and this pressure creates an electric charge in the piezo element which is the output signal of the sensor. They are tuned to engine knock frequency (typically 6-8kHz). Once signs of detonation are detected (i.e. knocking), the knock sensor sends a voltage signal to the engine management computer which retards the spark timing slightly to avoid detonation.”
If the sensor is malfunctioning, that would cause the CEL to trigger. I presume it is a short inside of the sensor itself. For the CEL remain on consistently there would have to be a permanent failure of the part. Being that it is intermittent, there could be an issue with the piezo element inside the sensor which is triggering the CEL. If you are unsure of the diagnosis you had received, disconnect the negative battery cable for a few minutes. This will clear all codes from the ecm. When the CEL comes back on, use a scan tool to diagnose the problem once again. If the same code comes up then the sensor is definitely bad and you have two choices: replace it or continue to drive and risk possible engine damage.
That is the way the dealer explained it to me when I was rebuilding one in my aunt’s ’08 Dodge Caliber last summer. They said that the rubber added cushioning between the belt and pulleys along with the ability to prevent slipping of the belt on the pulleys. That is why I stated grab in quotation marks. If I am incorrect about this then please inform me so I have the correct knowledge on the matter. 🙂
That is good that there does not appear to be coolant in the oil producing the typical milky condition. Coolant leaks can be a pia to find at times. :blink:
As for the UV dye, you can find it online or locally like at Advance Auto Parts. The one from AAP is as follows: Interdynamics Radiator and Cooling System UV Dye (1 oz.). It retails near me for $7.99, may be more or less near you. Here is the link:
Napa, AZ, Carquest, Pep Boys and O’Reilly’s will also sell them.
You can also buy a complete kit like the following:
Amazon for $51.35 w/Free shipping: http://www.amazon.com/Spectronics-TP8621-LeakFinder-Conditioner-Detection/dp/B0021UXUSQ/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424729677&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Tracer+Complete+LeakFinder+Kit+TP8621+Item+%2330092
The kit is $70 but it includes the flashlight, bottles of dye for all fluids, adapter for a/c, glasses to enhance the color, and dye cleaner. You might be able to find it for less on Amazon or ebay. Napa has it and they list the price as $104.
Here is a link to a video by Scotty Kilmer on how to use the UV dye to find a coolant leak:
As for the area of concern on your rad, it appears that is designed that way as a possible relief area. I cannot guarantee that due to various manufacturing techniques but it doesn’t appear to be an area of concern. You could always go to a local junkyard and see if others are built the same way for your make/model.
Hope this helps you out. Cheers!
Thank you for your reply. I have been looking at purchasing one of the electronic ears. I am starting to believe that may be my only choice. After seeing the video Eric did with the Acura having a bad engine mount is definitely an option I plan on exploring. All my knowledge keeps telling me it is the ball joints but with multiple checks and 5 techs checking it and the conclusion being that they are solid. I might have to see if I can find a tech with a chassis ear or if one of my tech friends have one. This is seriously making me go bonkers with all the obvious suspects coming out scott free. Thank you again ToyotaKarl, I do appreciate the input and equipment recommendation.
Check with your dealership to be sure they didn’t change this through a tsb. I know with the Jatco units found in Chrysler/Nissan/Mitsubishi vehicles they recommend fluid changes every 60,000 miles(severe duty schedule B/100,000 miles schedule A-normal duty) now due to failure from heat. CVT fluid has rubber molecules added to it in order for the steel belt to “grab” onto the clutches. It is a similar set-up to what is used on snowmobiles. Although they do have gears for reverse only. But due to the overheating of the fluid, the rubber melts causing complete fluid break down therefore causing the unit to self destruct. My mother’s 2008 Jeep Patriot has already had one unit replaced after the second overheat condition. It was claimed to be “lubed for life/lifetime fluid”. There is now a TSB on those units about routine fluid changes. Cheers!
In order to check the fluid level you need two things: 1- the graduated dipstick Mopar part #9336. Dorman also makes one, part #917-327 as does Miller and 2- temp chart. I will post links below.
With the hood open and looking down in the engine bay, their is a flat area towards the bottom front left of the cvt with a black plug near where the torque converter housing is. This is where you place the dipstick. You need to insert the dipstick into the hole and then use the graduated mm marks along with the temperature chart to get the proper level. According to Chrysler, a scan tool is needed to get an accurate temp reading in order to have an accurate fluid level reading. The fluid you will use is Mopar CVT+4, about $18/qt @ dealership/$8 on Amazon. They also sell it in 5 qt jugs. This CVT is made by Jatco and is used in Nissans. The use of standard atf, even a small amount WILL DESTROY these units!
“Checking the fluid in the CVT
isn’t straightforward. In fact, the procedure
follows along the same lines
as the NAG (722.6) and even the new
62TE. There’s no dipstick; customers
are encouraged to take their vehicle to
a repair facility every 15,000 miles to
have a trained technician check their
fluid. A special tool, Miller part number
9336, is used to check the level, which
depends on fluid temperature. Since the
fluid level can change almost 12mm
from 70ºF to 190ºF, the level must be
checked with the 9336 dipstick and
cross-referenced to a chart or table.
From the bottom of the internal stop the
fluid level should be:
Temperature High Low
77ºF 38mm 25mm
138ºF 42mm 29mm
191ºF 46mm 34mm
The fluid is expected to last the life
of the vehicle, but maintenance schedule
B (which pertains to most vehicles)
would require the fluid to be changed
every 60,000 miles. According to
DaimlerChrysler, schedule B includes
vehicles driven under any of these conditions:
• At temperatures below 32ºF (0ºC).
• Stop and go.
• Extensive engine idling.
• Dusty conditions.
• Short trips of less than 10
miles (16 km).
• More than 50% at sustained
high speeds during hot weather,
above 90ºF (32ºC).”Dorman Dipstick: http://www.dormanproducts.com/gsearch.aspx?type=keyword&origin=keyword&q=cvt+dipstick
Mopar CVT+4: http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Mopar-Fluid-5191184AA-Transmission/dp/B000TX75GU
Temp Chart: http://etereman.com/blog/fiat-transmission/what-problems-plague-the-chrysler-42lre-transmission (also includes exploded views of the cvt unit)
This will show where the plug is located: http://www.jatco.co.jp/ENGLISH/products/cvt/jf011e.html (It is the black plug by the Torque converter housing that looks like a cigarette lighter.)
“15. What could happen if I mix two different colours of antifreeze in my radiator?
If two different colours of antifreeze are mixed together, not only will it discolour and look brown or cloudy, it could also cause problems with the cooling system if they contain non-compatible corrosion inhibitors. The different colours of antifreeze usually help distinguish between different corrosion inhibitors. EcoFreez makes a Global Premium Coolant, yellow in colour, which is safe to mix with both conventional and OAT coolants and takes on the dominant colour of antifreeze in the radiator.”Quoted from the following article: http://foryourbusiness.eco-freez.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=118&Itemid=134
More info: http://blog.chiltondiy.com/2013/06/which-antifreeze-is-right-for-your-vehicle/
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/841/coolant-fundamentals
http://bioengr.ag.utk.edu/Extension/ExtProg/Machinery/Articles/engcool.htm
🙂
A few other things to look into are the following: TPS (Throttle Position) Sensor, EGR Valve malfunctioning, a bad PVC valve, M.A.P. Sensor, Idle Air Control Valve, and the Idle Speed Actuator. I have a 1995 Plymouth Voyager with a 3.3L V-6 made by Mitsubishi and the culprit was the Idle Air Control valve. Hope this helps.
I personally would advise against it. It could lead to ultimately engine replacement. If you are mechanically inclined, you can replace it yourself. Either purchase a repair manual for the vehicle (always a good idea to have one anyways, well worth the $30 or so) or have it done by a trained technician. Granted it may not cause severe engine damage instantaneously and you can go a while with it bad yet it will cause damage over time. Personally I would rather spend $50-$300 repairing it then $5,000 for a new engine. Also, if you do it yourself, do NOT drop it! They are very sensitive and dropping it will destroy it. I encountered that lesson the hard way. Good luck in your decision.
I can think of two options that may or may not be of use to you: 1: Does your oil look “milky”, i.e. a whitish color under the oil cap, on the dipstick, or when you drain the oil? That would be a sign of a possible head gasket failure. 2: Have you tried adding UV dye into the cooling system? After adding it, drive it a couple of days, then using a black light to see where the dye is seeping through. Like previously mentioned, due to the age of the vehicle the difference in compression could be that the rings are worn or as also stated carbon build up. If you have access to a camera, insert that through the spark plug holes and see if there is a build up of carbon on the piston tops which yes would reduce the cylinders overall capacity but I would believe it would have to be a very large amount of deposits to reduce such varied compression results. But that is just a theory. One last thing: have you changed the type or weight of the oil you are using i.e. synthetic or 20 weight instead of 30 weight for instance? If so, the difference might also explain why you are having different readings. Thus would point me to worn rings. But IMHO if it runs fine I wouldn’t worry about the compression. The coolant leak would be my first concern in resolving with adding a uv dye to assist in leak detection. Cheers!