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I think I fixed it. We’ll see. I noticed that as the day heated up (100 degrees and 16%) that the gauges showed 65 psi on low and 450 on high side, which I thought was too much, so I let out a bunch of the refrigerant (1 oz or so of bright yellow oil came out too I think, hope that’s OK). I now have around 35-40 psi low and about 350 high (varies). I haven’t seen the symptoms crop up yet. I’m getting 63 F from the vents, which I understand from the Honda chart is about right for a hot day like today.
I do think it’s an AC issue.
I rented some manifold gauges today and did the test procedure from the service manual.
– At rest (car warm but off), ambient around 90 degrees F:
high side: 108 psi
low side: 28 psi– Car on, run for 10 minutes at 1500 rpm per manual:
high side: 150 psi
low side: 28 psiI then completed the chart, and considering 90 degrees ambient and around 23% humidity, it looks like the high side should be about 250 psi and low side around 35 psi. So, it’s a bit low, but the low side is sort of close at 28, the high side seems very low. I think if I charged it, it may overcharge the low side, potentially.
During the test, the car intermittently started turning the compressor on and off and each time the compressor turned off, there was a clunking noise about a second later, coming from over by the schrader valves on the passenger side near the battery. The temp at the vents went up from 55 F to 75 F as well, when it started acting up. It would act up for about 30 seconds then return to normal operation for about 5-10 minutes, then repeat the cycle.
I made a video on YouTube so that you can hear the symptoms:
Could it be the AC pressure switch? Would charging the system further make the low side overcharged or mostly just get that high side up where it should be?
[quote=”Evil-i” post=168534]It’s a good thing that both the left and right settings are now similar to each other.[/quote]
They are and that’s why, due to your good advice, I told the service guy to go ahead and do the alignment even though he, being clearly a very honest shop, didn’t think it needed it. He almost told me to go away (very nice guy though)! But he relented, saying “it’s your car”. 🙂
Today, I found a place that did alignment for $40 and they did a good job, everything is within spec now according to their equipment. 0.06 degrees instead of 0.38. Note that the guy at the counter looked at the report I got from Big O and told me that it didn’t really need an alignment but I went ahead and had it done anyway. So, clearly a person that does alignment every day thought that 0.38 degree rear toe, while technically out of spec, was very minor.
[quote=”cam0888″ post=168479]That rear toe should definitely be fixed[/quote]
Does anyone think it’s worth it to do this myself? I’ve done a lot on this car!
[quote=”Evil-i” post=168457]In general terms, the closer the numbers are to “spot on”, and the same from side-to-side, the more life you’re going get out of your tires, and the car’s handling will be better.[/quote]
Thanks for that, I was hoping someone could also pipe in with something like “0.38 degrees is nothing to worry about. It is very small and won’t effect the life of the tires enough to warrant $100 fee for the alignment”. True/False in your experience?
[quote=”hondaguy453″ post=159139]I’m sorry I’m barely getting back to this, but I’m glad you found the issue! So it’s fixed for good?[/quote]
Yes thankfully so. 🙂 Thanks again.
I’m happy to report that replacing the ECU / ECM module finally fixed the problem as far as I can tell. I mean I’m not 100% sure because it’s an intermittent issue and it’s only been one day but it’s very promising as it was acting up more consistently these days. So I tried dozens of ‘conventional wisdom’ fixes found on the Internet for the engine surging / idle issues but in the final analysis, “read the service manual” (the code 14 troubleshooting chart) was the solution when followed through all the way to the end.
I’ll never know if replacing all of the capacitors in the original ECM would have solved the problem. I replaced about half of them but didn’t have the other values. May or may not have been an avenue to pursue further for a low cost fix.
All of the other things I did (replacing all of the valves and sensors, full tune up and more) I’ll chalk up to preventative maintenance and a learning experience. All told it probably cost less than the dealership would have charged to replace just the ECM. That’s one way of looking at it.
Thanks again for the consulting, especially DaCoder.
Will update if the issue crops up again.
[quote=”EricTheCarGuy” post=157340]The flow chart pretty much makes you eliminate every other possibility. The FSM procedure also calls for a break out box that you attach to the computer to take your readings from. I doubt the poster has access to one. It would be nice to rule out a wiring problem or other issue before replacing the PCM[/quote]
Thanks for the further discussion.
I don’t have the break out box as you surmised, but my understanding is that backprobing the ECU harness pins accomplishes the same thing.
Here are the two pages from the service manual regarding code 14. I have circled where I am in red.
[IMG]http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb130/7h645764n57/2010-03-09_163135_dtc_14_zpsgvztfuuj.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb130/7h645764n57/2010-03-09_163135_dtc_14-2_zpsgj3nbblj.jpg[/IMG]Note that the test right above there, I get the clicks very reliably so surely it wouldn’t be a wiring issue upstream from the ECU?
The only aftermarket item in the car is the alarm that the Honda dealership installed when the car was brand new. So it’s almost as stock as they come. Looks like it’s an Audiovox Pursuit Pro 9244. Since the dealership installed it I would assume it’s not cheesed.
[quote=”DaCoder” post=157282]Ah, refresh this page, I figured out that the model number i gave was M/T only, there are two ECM numbers for A/T, this is from estore.honda btw.[/quote]
Gotcha. I wonder if the aftermarket alarm system the dealer installed will be a problem with swapping the ECU.
[quote=”DaCoder” post=157280]The ECM shouldn’t be hard to find, shipping shouldn’t be too bad either, here is the Honda part number for the ECM: 37820-P0B-A01
Good luck and keep us posted![/quote]
The part number of the original ECM in this car is 37820-P0A-A51. What the differences if any are I have no idea but I’ll buy the same part number as I have here.
Thanks, I will keep you posted.
Today I replaced the ECT sensor with brand new OEM part, no change. As a part of that job I did drain/fill/bleed the coolant system and squeezed the hoses and got the engine heated up with a no-spill funnel set attached to the radiator with the front end jacked up 2 feet for optimal air removal from the system.
I redid the idle setting procedure and this time set the screw as far in as it would go which looks like maybe 650 rpm if I had to make a guess by looking at the tach. No difference (been here before).
Tested the MAP sensor properly today with a vacuum pump.
Results:
2.9v on the third pin (backprobed) to battery negative.
5 inHg: 2.41v
10 inHg: 1.93v
15 inHg: 1.47v
20 inHg: 1v
25 inHg: .6vPressure released: 2.9v
No leaks, pressure held as long as I wanted.
I think we can call the MAP sensor good now.
Got to be the ECU…. or maybe a fuel pressure issue but less likely that due to constant CEL code 14…. at least the ECU is part of Honda’s troubleshooting procedure for CEL 14.
Thanks for trying to help me, I do appreciate it. Any other ideas are welcome. I’ll be trying to get my hands on a decent used ECU for this car now.
Today I decided to test the Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) sensor more thoroughly.
I drained the coolant (will re-use it later).
Then I took the ECT off (tricky to reach but loosening up the wiring harness in front of it made it possible to get a deep socket on the ECT then jam a ratchet in there.
Once I had it out, I first put the ECT sensor under a cold tap –
Cold tap: 3700 ohms (maybe a little low but I didn’t have ice)
I then let it warm up to room temp, the reading ranged smoothly up to:
Room temp 21 degrees C : 2000 ohms (good)
I then heated some water –
Hot stove water at exactly 100 degrees C : 154 ohms
154 ohms is out of tolerance. This part is supposed to be between 200 and 400 ohms, about 300 ohms at 100 degrees C.
Whether that would be the problem here I can’t yet say after so many dead-end leads on this project.
I ordered Honda part number 37870-PK2-015 since the knockoffs had such bad reviews. Will report back if this fixed the issues on Thursday.
Here’s what I did today on this:
– Replaced the compromised old Nichicon 33uf capacitors on the ECU circuit board with new Nichicons of same value. No immediate change in symptoms.
– Tested with transmission in Neutral, no change in symptoms. Presumably since it’s still acting up in Neutral and I haven’t seen any flashing from D4 (although I haven’t jumped the transmission service connector) it’s not the transmission.
– Back probed the engine coolant temperature sensor connector. There was no way I could get multimeter probes in there by hand with sufficient accuracy to maintain contact with the pins inside the sensor. Instead, I used needles to backprobe the connector and attached alligator clips to those. The measurements were taken with the electrical connector still plugged into the sensor. The reading was 800 ohms or so with the engine off and stone cold. I then ran the engine hard to reach max operating temp (fans on several times). Turned engine off. 140 ohms. Increased smoothly up to 200 ohms or so within a few minutes as the engine cooled just a bit (still hot).
– Unplugged several vacuum lines from the throttle body one at a time, plugging the holes on the throttle body to see if the engine smoothed out. No changes.
– Did the full idle speed adjustment routine again:
1) Unplug service connector and apply jumper
2) Unplug IACV electrical connector
3) Turn car on
4) Wait about 30 minutes for engine to heat up fully, fans on a few times
5) Set idle screw so that RPM tach hits just below the second notch on the gauge, about 700 rpm
6) Turn engine off
7) Pull two fuses (backup and ECM) for a couple minutes to reset ECU
8) plug in service connector
9) Plug in IACV
10) Turn on car and let idle for 20 minutes with everything off and not touching throttle for ECU to relearnThe symptoms are always better when the engine is thoroughly heated up but very bouncy between 1.25K and 1.5K RPM.
There’s the fuel pressure, pump, filter to look at I suppose. Also I did notice some liquid maybe water (no odor) on the ground under the tailpipe and around the engine valve cover gasket, may be just condensation. Could try water remover in fuel just in case.
There’s also that 220uf cap in the ECU that looked like it had leaked a little bit, didn’t have a replacement for that. leaking a little only causes a cap to be slightly off value though not sure that would cause the problem. Could get a replacement used ECU off of ebay perhaps for testing.
Sucking on MAP sensor may have been inadequate test, could get vacuum pump to test it more thoroughly.
[quote=”DaCoder” post=156907]Honestly I didn’t know you had an A/T, place it in neutral, when the engine is acting up, see if it solves it. The TCM on this car also might cause issues.[/quote]
It’s been a while since I’ve tried it in neutral but I seem to recall it didn’t make any difference. I could be wrong and I’ll have to go check it tomorrow. Thanks for mentioning it. I should have those 33uf caps tomorrow and we shall see if that solves it once those are replaced in the ECU.