[Aldon]

Thanks. Yeah that link is pretty helpful. Sounds like there are really a lot of possibilities… I’m not really sure how much of those checks I can perform myself besides the visual hose inspections.

Did my filler neck in the picture look normal or is it rusted more than it should be?

[Aldon]

Awesome, thanks. I’ll look into a fuel pressure check. In the meantime:::

I cleared the codes today, and the codes that were on it were actually different than the first two times. (I didn’t bother checking it the last time it came back since I figured it would be the same…. :unsure: )

The codes that I just cleared were: “P0442: Evaporative Emission System Leak Detected (Small Leak)”
And then two that said “Pending” and they were: “P0440: Evaporative Emission System” and then another P0442 code was also pending.

I cleared them all, so we’ll see if anything else comes up while driving it. I have a new gas cap (the “Gas Cap Loose” light came on again). I should’ve replaced it a while ago, but I didn’t. I will do that before driving it again.
The part of the car that the gas cap screws onto is rusted a little, maybe this is the problem and not the gas cap?

Attachments:

• GasCapPic1.jpg
• GasCapPic2.jpg
• GasCapPic3.jpg

[Aldon]

[quote=”headlessblade” post=139068]Ok so this morning the Service Engine Soon light came on FML lol. Read the manual and it says it could be the gas tank cover or Emissions related problem…. Got to go get the code checked at the mechanic. I cleaned the gas tank cover and tightened it like 5 clicks. Is it suppose to be 1 click or 3? or ??? The cover just says turn until click… The light should turn off after a few drives according to the manual(didn’t drive much). When I opened the cap I heard a kind of suction noise its got half tank (10galllons).[/quote]

It might actually say how to put on you gas cap in your car manual, mine says just do it until it clicks once. I’m guessing the cap has some sort of torque mechanism (like a torque wrench) that won’t allow it to be tightened too tightly, so clicking it a lot of times shouldn’t make it tighter. To me it would make sense that if you clicked it a ton of times really often it would be more likely to wear out sooner.

Mostly I just wanted to add that if you don’t have a code reader, many auto parts stores will loan them to you for free. So if you’re close to one, just stop by and read the code in their parking lot. No need to pay a mechanic for that, but if they do it for free too, then just go to wherever is most convenient.
Edit: I guess I read the comments too fast, Eric already said that you can get the code read at an auto parts store. My bad. 😉

[Aldon]

I just got my injectors back today from being cleaned. I have installed them but have only driven about 5-10 miles. I attached the data. It looks like they didn’t find one that was leaking. The change in flow doesn’t look that big to me, however I don’t know what qualifies as a “big change” inside of an engine.

*I forgot to include this on my main page of data. I don’t know if the P0172 code is related or not, but the gas gauge doesn’t always read correctly. When the fuel is getting low, occasionally the gauge will bounce upwards substantially. From the little I know, I would guess the sender is going bad. Could this also mean the fuel pump is going bad too? and if so could this be my real problem? :dry:

Attachments:

• InjectorCleaningData.jpg

[Aldon]

[quote=”cap269″ post=137459]No, the fuel drips out the nozzle into the cylinder where it runs into the combustion chamber, then drips past the ring gaps in the piston rings, and continues past the rods and crankshaft into the sump where it mixes with the oil. The lower o-rings keep the intake airtight and the upper o-rings prevent fuel from leaking out of the rail.[/quote]
Thank you for this explanation. I try to find things online, but finding clear information often takes more time than I have available.

[quote=”cap269″ post=137459]Also, while waiting for the injectors to come back, it might be a good time to change the oil and filter.[/quote]
Yeah, I wanted to try to get this fixed before I changed the oil so that the new oil wasn’t mixed with gasoline also. It’s about time though, I’ll be at the 3 months in a week, but I’m just at 2,000 miles. Time to switch to 10w-30 for the summer as well.

Do you know anything about this cleaning service;I was looking at sending them out to these guys (Injector RX). (If you have an alternative suggestion, let me know). I’ll be able to send them out at the end of the week when I’m back home. Also, I wanted to quickly double check: Are my injectors the “Standard Top Feed Fuel Injector”? I’m pretty sure they aren’t a “Direct Fuel Injector” or GDI.

Thanks again for all of your help and patience. I’m definitely still a newbie when it comes to fixing cars.

[Aldon]

[quote=”cap269″ post=137455]I apologize if you misunderstood or if I just wasn’t very clear. When I mentioned leaking injectors, I didn’t mean the O-rings, I meant leaking on the inside such that the pintle is damaged or isn’t closing all the way (due to obstruction or mechanical failure) and pressurized fuel is able to escape past it into the cylinder and run past the rings into the oil.[/quote]
Ah okay. But if the inside of it is leaking it still would have to go past the external O-rings to get into the oil right?
.

It got cross threaded. I would remove the fuel rail and use vice grips to try to grab onto what’s left and twist it out. Once out, use a thread chaser or tap the same size and thread pitch (be certain of this!) and repair the threads before inserting a new bolt. If it cannot be twisted out, drilling into the center of the bolt and using an extractor (or drilling it out and re-tapping the hole for a larger bolt) may be the next option.

I was a bit worried on this since I can’t actually tell what holds it in (is there a head on the screw that is inside that I can’t see?). This couldn’t happen if I never moved the screw, could it? Maybe the nut got cross threaded onto the screw and then twisted the screw so that it snapped off? I don’t imagine the screw was cross threaded in the engine part if it didn’t move in and out. :unsure:
I was thinking I would have to take it apart to unscrew it from the inside. But if there is no head to these screws it would be awesome to just be able to extract it. How far do you imagine that I can drill into the screw? I don’t want to damage anything on the other side.

Attachments:

• fuelinjectordiagram.jpg

[Aldon]

Thanks cap269, that explanation helped. I didn’t realize that Eric was just talking about the fuel trim trending in a lean or rich direction, and was thinking about the overall condition.

A couple of days ago I took your suggestion and changed out the Fuel Injector O-ring seals. The originals looked just fine, however they were a bit dirty on the outside (the filter and pintle opening were pretty clean though. -I attached a comparison picture- I changed them anyways since I had it all taken apart, and actually I felt the originals fit tighter. Anyway, that didn’t seem to have fixed the problem. I’ve driven it for about 3 hours and the light is still on (I didn’t reset it, did I wait long enough for it to have time to reset itself?). The idle seems a little lower, however it is still rough and one of the times I went to start it after leaving a store it didn’t start (in the same way as described before).

So, now what next?
What other seals could be allowing gas to mix with the oil, or at least smell like it is? And of course what else could be causing the P0172 code?

Also, when tightening up the nuts to put the fuel rail back on, I snapped one of the screws I was putting the nut onto. It didn’t even get very snug before it twisted off… The fuel rail is secure and doesn’t wobble, but I’ll still want to change this bolt however I don’t know how to get to it. So help on this would be appreciated as well. -I have attached a picture of where this is-

Attachments:

• BrokenFuelRailNut.jpg
• FuelInjectors.jpg

[Aldon]

[quote=”sirius-c” post=136977]This would invoke a lean condition, not a rich one…
or could it be that if it does run lean due to a vacuum leak then the system adds more fuel to compensate for the leak and emit the rich smell from the exhaust?……
I don’t know, my brain hurts! lol[/quote]

Hey sirius-c,
I had a guy explain it to me on one of my posts. I have a code for a rich condition in my engine and was wondering if I should check for a vacuum leak based upon that video that I linked you. I’ve quoted his reply at the end of the post if you want to read it. I think I get it now and realize what I was misunderstanding.

Eric is only talking about the “fuel trims” trending rich in his second statement in the video. So a vacuum leak will give a lean condition, but if you look specifically at the “fuel trim” readings and they have increased, then you might have a vacuum leak. It’s only the fuel trims that change and become more rich, but they’re doing that to compensate for a lean condition. That automatic adjustment of the fuel system won’t cause a rich code though, but a lean code IF the system can not compensate enough to get the proper mixture. The fuel trims are just something else to look at to further diagnose the problem and know if you should look towards a bad O₂ sensor or a vacuum leak.

Sorry if I confused you with my post, I just thought I heard some useful information but I didn’t understand what it meant. At least I learned something and hopefully maybe you did as well. 🙂

[quote=”cap269″ post=136741]When there is an air/vacuum leak, there is air in the system that did not pass through the MAF, so it is not accounted for in the computer’s calculation. This typically causes a lean condition. The O2 responds to this and the computer enriches the mixture (positive short term fuel trim) to compensate. On the other hand, something such as a leaky injector will apply too much fuel. The O2 indicates a rich condition and the computer then tries to remove fuel or add air, reducing fuel injector pulse width (negative short term fuel trim), or maybe opening the IACV, or some other strategy, again trying to achieve stoich (the proper air to fuel ratio). If it is unable to provide stoich through the adjustment strategies it is programmed for, it sets a rich or lean code. If the compensation results in stoich, no code is set, and the new values are written to memory (long term fuel trim). This is called the “adaptive fuel system.” Only when the computer fails to compensate and produce stoich is a code set. This is the idea Eric was talking about in the video.[/quote]

Best of luck,
Aldon

[Aldon]

[quote=”cap269″ post=136652]A vacuum leak usually causes a lean condition since unmetered air is entering which dilutes the fuel mixture, so I am not sure looking for a vacuum leak is called for at this point. Rich code means too much fuel or not enough air is throwing off the fuel mixture to the point where the computer cannot adapt.[/quote]
The reason I was thinking about checking for a vacuum leak is because of what I heard Eric say in this video (I’ll link it below). I don’t know much about how cars work, but what he said made sense, however I suppose he could have misspoke.
Since it’s pretty easy to test for, I think I’ll go ahead and give it a go and let you guys know if I find anything.

On this video of ETCG. (The statement in the time from 1:44 to 2:28 is what I’m referring to.)
.
.

[quote=”cap269″ post=136652]The clues in your original post, especially the oil smelling like fuel, tells me that you might have one or more leaking fuel injectors on cyl 1, 3, or 5, since the code is for Bank 1.
. . .
Normally I would suggest testing the O2 first, but since you indicate a fuel smell in the oil, that sounds like too much fuel is being applied.[/quote]
Yes, it definitely had a distinct gasoline smell to it. I was really surprised when I noticed it and figured that wasn’t normal. Thank you for commenting on this. I have a Haynes manual, I’ll check if that has anything about changing the fuel injector seals. My car is getting decently old, so if some seals were going bad that would make sense. I know I’ve found numerous things online about this engine having “intake manifold gasket” leaking problems. Would this also cause oil to smell like fuel?
.
.

[quote=”cap269″ post=136652]BTW, if you are wanting to do more repairs on your own car, which is fantastic, do yourself a favor and get an OBDII scan tool. You can get USB or Bluetooth devices that pair with a PC, tablet, or smartphone for around $25-30. A worthy investment. These will let you not only read codes, but also monitor live data to show you the real-time functioning of things like the O2 sensors and fuel trims. One that I like to recommend is the ElmScan 5.[/quote]
That would be awesome. I didn’t realize I could get one for so cheap. I’ll look in to this! I’ve just been going to Advance Auto Parts and borrowing theirs when I’ve needed one. It’s a short trip to their store from my place, but it would be nice to have my own.

Thanks for all of your help!
Aldon

[Aldon]

Hey guys, I just wanted to bring something to your attention that I thought might be useful giving your circumstances and what you’re talking about. Now I’m not very knowledgeable about cars, so I don’t know how or why it works, but you mentioned a possible “rich” condition. Also given it seems like your O₂ sensors are working (based on what “thisisbuod” says), you might consider checking for a vacuum leak.

I currently have a code on my car for a rich condition in bank 1, and people were telling me to check the O₂ sensor, however based upon what Eric says in his video I posted about below (unless he happened to misspeak), It seems like a good thing to check. So I’m going to at least check out a vacuum leak when I have time since it’s really easy to do. Might be something for you to consider as well.

On this video of ETCG. (The statement in the time from 1:44 to 2:28 is what I’m referring to.)

Best of luck,
Aldon

[Aldon]

[quote=”wokko7″ post=136629]I would get your O2 sensor checked.[/quote]

That would be the very first thing you would do? That would be a “take it to the shop” kind of thing for me, I don’t have the tools to check that. Unless just using your normal scanner/code reader would suffice.

I also was planning on picking up some carburetor cleaner (or perhaps propane enrichment) and checking for a vaccuum leak like Eric did here (in this video). Actually, after re-watching this video just now, I think that checking for a vacuum leak might be the best next step to take. It’s at least seems pretty easy to do.

[Aldon]

This can often be a very controversial topic. Eric made a really good video on this (found here), just in case you haven’t seen it yet.

But I agree with “dtidman”, I don’t really see a reason to change the oil now.

As long as you consistently change your oil, that’s the most important thing, the type of oil isn’t necessarily as important. Your car manual will likely say to use a certain grade of oil and then simply to use anything that is certified by the American Petroleum Institute (API) and has their little “starburst” or “doughnut” symbol on it.

Perhaps a “high mileage” oil to revitalize the seals could be helpful if you’re burning oil or have a slow leak somewhere. Definitely if you have a leak, I would recommend not swapping to a regular full synthetic (based on what Eric says in that video).

Overall, I’d say there is no reason to change, just keep doing what you’re doing since it’s working. Do regular changes and you’ll be fine. However, if you wanted to switch; using either a conventional or synth blend that is formulated for High Mileage and contain a seal conditioner probably at least wouldn’t harm anything.

***Just teach your nephew proper maintenance schedules, that will prevent the most problems in the long run. It’s the easiest and best thing you can do for a vehicle. No reason to only wait for a problem to do mechanic work!

Best of luck,
Aldon

[Author]

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