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Yes, it’s a strange title, but I really want some opinions here.
Car: 2005 Dodge Neon SXT, manual transaxle w/o ABS, 49,000 miles, 17″ wheels, tire size P205/40R17. I bought it new.
History – Engine: Engine was replaced in 2007 due to collision damage w/salvage engine with 1000 less miles on it. At that time, the coolant was replaced with a green-colored one. Almost a year ago, I drained and filled the coolant. It was rather dirty, and there’s still dirt in the system. (I admit it – I was too lazy to flush it!) Around that same time, I also replaced the drive belts, air filter, spark plugs and wires around that time.
History – Tire: I bought a set of wheels secondhand for $100 to replace the originals which were peeling. (Probably should have painted them but oh well – I hated the tires anyway.) I calculated the size to best match the total height of the original tire/wheel assembly.
Presenting complaint: After a hard stop on the interstate, I started to hear some thudding and feel some vibration from the wheels, mainly in front. I rotated the tires, and it then moved the problem to the rear. I didn’t notice anything unusual about the tires, so I thought that balance might be an issue. For want of a tire balance machine, I had to go to the shop.
Diagnosis of chief complaint: Tire flat spots. I didn’t notice them, though, but that’s reasonable given the problem. Replacing the rear tires did help but didn’t cure the problem.
Unrelated diagnostic work: The mechanic observed bubbling at the radiator cap site (didn’t say to what degree or for how long he did the bubble test). Diagnosed a head gasket leak. When I asked if he did other tests, he said this was the only one necessary for this diagnosis. His video with that kind of test (though he did say my car wasn’t as bad as the one in the video): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAJLMd46ySU
Lack of symptoms: There are no telltale symptoms of a head gasket leak. The car shows none of the following: oil in the coolant, coolant in the oil, reduced fuel economy, reduced power, white smoke out the tailpipe, foaming coolant, increase in temperature.
Estimate: Replace head gasket, timing belt, drive belts, spark plugs and wires, water pump, thermostat. Oil change and coolant drain/flush/fill. Cylinder head machining as necessary. About $2800.
Result: Like I said, the problem wasn’t cured. This mechanic thought he saw a flat dent on one wheel – couldn’t remember which – and probably would recommend replacing it.
Second opinion: The second mechanic said that the engine work estimate was ridiculous and saw no problems with it. He furthermore corrected my presenting complaint with a right rear wheel bearing replacement.
My idea about bubble test: There is probably air in the cooling system, but that might be merely because of my lazy coolant service. Furthermore, radiator caps are a dime a dozen, but a failing one won’t let the air leave the system. To test my idea, I replaced the radiator cap after the wheel work was complete. Before replacement, the temperature gauge consistently rose to slightly above the 1/3 mark. After replacement, it’ll go that high, but on the highway, it’ll slowly cycle down to slightly below the 1/3 mark, and go back up to where it was again when I get off the highway and slow down.
Out of this long story, I just want some thoughts and opinions. Here are a few questions I have:
Is the first mechanic being reasonable in diagnosing a bad head gasket with only the bubble test and dirty coolant with no other signs, symptoms, or testing? (I’m skeptical if you couldn’t tell…)
Should I go ahead and do a proper coolant drain/flush/fill? If so, should I use dealer antifreeze, or is Zerex G-05 or Prestone Extended Life okay?
Does the coolant bubble test failure merit further testing (like a chemical coolant gas test)? Should I repeat the bubble test if I drain/flush/fill?
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Quoted From bige1083:
1) Is the first mechanic being reasonable in diagnosing a bad head gasket with only the bubble test and dirty coolant with no other signs, symptoms, or testing? (I’m skeptical if you couldn’t tell…)
2) Should I go ahead and do a proper coolant drain/flush/fill? If so, should I use dealer antifreeze, or is Zerex G-05 or Prestone Extended Life okay?
3) Does the coolant bubble test failure merit further testing (like a chemical coolant gas test)? Should I repeat the bubble test if I drain/flush/fill?
So replacing the rear wheel bearing got rid of the thudding & vibration? Strange that a wheel bearing went bad right around the time you flat spotted the tires.
1 & 3: I would definitely do more testing before starting down the expensive road of getting the head gasket replaced. You have several choices. You can test for exhaust gases present in the coolant (as you stated), you can do a leakdown test and look for bubbles in the radiator with the engine NOT running, or you can also try pressurizing the cooling system and look for a drop in pressure (though a leak in the cooling system elsewhere may give you a false positive here). At the least i would do a compression test too.
As for no other telltale signs of a head gasket problem like oil in the coolant, no coolant in the oil, that just means the gasket didn
I would watch coolant for short time to see if you are losing any. My mother has a 98 Chrysler van that over heated on her last summer because of radiator fan problem, when she was out of town. A auto service told her head gaskets were bad. I told her that was correct cause I noticed it a couple years back, but was watching it. Uses some coolant, but not that much so she just keeps running it.
2800 dollars for estimate? I hope at least a shoe shine with that!
That is NOT a valid test and tells you virtually nothing but I show a proper test in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUzOTnsWImIIt is VERY important to bleed the air out of the cooling system anytime you open the cooling system for service or repair, if you don’t then the trapped air in the system can cause all kinds of issues in fact the most common cause of overheat problems stems from air in the cooling system. I’m also wondering since you said that YOU did the work after the collision if you bled the air out after you were done. If you suspect a head gasket issue use the method outlined in the above video but first bleed the cooling system out before you have any repairs done in the future.
That said tires are often the cause of the other problem you encountered so I’m not surprised to hear that. BTW it has nothing to do with the wheel, I suspect it’s the tires themselves based on your description.
If you need the tools needed to check for a cooling system issue, most good auto parts store will loan out the block tester and cooling system pressure tester.
I agree that more diagnostics are in order.
You should use coolant from the dealer or Zerex which is the only aftermarket brand that meets Chryslers specs for HOAT coolant. I know Prestone advertises “all makes and models” but that has different chemistry so why mess with it?
A previous refill with the wrong stuff could be why it is now dirty.
Quoted From EricTheCarGuy:
That is NOT a valid test and tells you virtually nothing but I show a proper test in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUzOTnsWImIThanks, Eric, for confirming my suspicions. I did my research after the diagnosis and more than $2600 estimate (that includes a 10% discount that mechanic offers to employees of my company, but it includes a lot more engine work than just the gasket). I wish I had done more research about the shop I went to beforehand, but at least I am making my friends and coworkers aware of this hastily-made diagnosis. I didn’t even suspect anything with the head gasket before going to the shop!
Stupid me didn’t fully check out the mechanic beforehand. I deferred posting these links since I wanted an opinion not prejudiced by them. However, these are what I found:
The shop is Walt’s Auto Service Plus: http://www.waltsautoserviceplus.com
Page on Google Maps: http://maps.google.com/maps/place?cid=1 … authuser=0
Better Business Bureau listing: http://www.bbb.org/wichita/business-rev … a-ks-20173
Link to the test, again (notice username): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAJLMd46ySU
YouTube linked from shop website about antifreeze (note a username in comments): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjLYtIXU1mQI vented on Google Maps. I tried my hardest to maintain my objectivity, though, to help lend credibility to my review. After all, Walt, the shop owner, is friendly, and his shop is quick. However, he seems to be overly eager, for whatever reason, to replace head gaskets.
What I didn’t find: ASE certification or evidence of technical training.
Stupid me. Granted, I have a cold and a sinus infection that started around the time I looked for a mechanic, so my mind has been a little cloudier than usual.
Quoted From EricTheCarGuy:
It is VERY important to bleed the air out of the cooling system anytime you open the cooling system for service or repair, if you don’t then the trapped air in the system can cause all kinds of issues in fact the most common cause of overheat problems stems from air in the cooling system. I’m also wondering since you said that YOU did the work after the collision if you bled the air out after you were done. If you suspect a head gasket issue use the method outlined in the above video but first bleed the cooling system out before you have any repairs done in the future.Just to make sure we’re on the same page – the drain and fill I did was three years after the collision. So yes, I did coolant service myself after the collision, but not the work immediately after.
However, I did not bleed the air. In fact, I skipped the flushing, too. It was about me being lazy and justifying myself by the shop manual (a) saying to deaerate the system by driving since the air gathers under the radiator cap which causes it to flow into the recovery tank and out of the system and (b) presenting the sections of the coolant service procedure in drain, fill, clean order. Plus that was way before I knew of Eric the Car Guy…before the enlightened days.
When I get well, I’ll have to do a drain/flush/fill and I’ll refer to http://www.youtube.com/user/EricTheCarG … UpXgAJ1gjU but ignore the use of the bleeder valve that my car doesn’t have.
One question, though: To flush/clean (but not to refill) is it okay to use tap water?
Quoted From EricTheCarGuy:
That said tires are often the cause of the other problem you encountered so I’m not surprised to hear that. BTW it has nothing to do with the wheel, I suspect it’s the tires themselves based on your description.Walt’s replaced the tires, which reduced the intensity of the thud, but it wasn’t a complete fix. The bearing eliminated the thud. Perhaps it was already bad, and the heat from the stop along with having the bad tire on it for a few miles killed it.
Granted, I wouldn’t have been so hard on Walt about not noticing that had he not tried to sell me a new head gasket. Even Rod, the mechanic who gave me a second opinion, didn’t notice the right rear bearing until he test-drove the car with me as a passenger. He almost told me “no problem, no charge,” chalking all the noise up to being normal for a 7-year-old car with cheapy, low-profile tires.
Fortunately, Rod’s lack of business sense clued me in to insist he test my car with a passenger. You see, he said he offers rides to work, but I had to drive one of the other guys from the shop to my workplace in my car (or be late), and he drove my car back to the shop. The thud, sporadic when I was driving alone, became loud and clear on that ride to work.
Speaking of bearings, I suspect the others to be bad. They kind of whine like http://www.youtube.com/user/EricTheCarG … dRpnK5MGQ8 but not as loudly or noticeably. The front end vibrates a little at higher speeds too. I only notice it when I’m paying close attention to sounds and feel. I’m guessing that an alignment check and front balance might be in order, and perhaps the bearing check in the video. However, it’s kinda scary and my car is manual shift.
Thanks everyone for your replies – I really appreciate them. Big thanks to Eric the Car Guy for all the time and money he’s invested in his Internet presence – you rock!
Please watch the video link on engine overheats as you are misinformed on how the radiator cap works and I cover that in the video. In addition air does NOT collect under the radiator cap it collects at the highest point in the system which usually is the heater core hence the reason for the bleeding procedure. I do NOT recommend flushing the system not only do I believe this will have 0 effect in your case but you may actually introduce a problem into the system. Flushing is something I only recommend in cases where there is a lot of sludge or corrosion buildup within the system in most other cases it’s just not necessary. I recommend you just bleed the air out of the system and then recheck for the overheat symptoms as I’ve suggested.
Being out of alignment does not cause a vibration but it can cause abnormal tire wear, vibrations at speed are normally tire or tire balance related and are NOT related to loose or out of alignment suspension parts. Things that rotate cause vibrations not things that are out of alignment or loose.
As for noises if you follow the steps in the suspension noise video it should help you nail down the cause but try not to make assumptions, instead gather evidence to support your suspicions.
I hope you feel better soon, keep us posted.
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