wheel alignment

[Dan]

Hello. I replaced the tie rods on my car because they were shot. I checked the other suspension components in the car and all seemed solid and decent, albeit the right strut appears to be slightly bent, but I can’t afford the struts yet. Otherwise the car rides smooth and there was no suspension play. My wife works next to a goodyear and they give deals to them, so I told her take the car for an alignment. I picked up the car a few hours later and they said that they adjusted the toe but quoted me for the upper control arms and lower ball joints, which all have no play and are leaking no grease. The estimate 1186 dollars and some change. When I started talking to her about what I know she quickly tried to get me out of the store. I asked for a printout of the alignment angles which they “looked” for, that took like 5 minutes. She said that they don’t have the printout of the alignment, then pulled out the numbers. What concerns me is that the caster is -5.04° on the left front (spec shows 2 to 4°) and -5.36° on the right front (spec is the same). The camber on the left front was -1.32° (spec calls for -1 to 1°). Everything else was in spec. I am curious is all this could be related to the bent strut, or if I should replace all the parts they quoted me. They didn’t notice the strut and didn’t quote me on it. My wife’s boss thinks that a woman brought the car in so they thought they could take her for a ride and wasn’t expecting me. Could this be the case?

I am hoping that I can figure out the negative caster thing. I have been trying to figure it out but there are really only mentions of it. From what I understand the steering pivot is behind the vertical, I don’t really know what that means. From the pictures I have seen on wheel alignment sites, they all show the strut coming from the front of the car back to the knuckle, mine looks more like the positive caster pictures.

I added a picture of the printout they gave me but I can’t take a steady picture.

Thank you for taking the time to read, sorry that it was so long. Your help will be greatly appreciated.

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[Richard Kirshy]

You state you have a bent strut.
I’m no front end expert by any means …
But I would take an educated guess that could be an issue.
As to the rest of the issues “found”

I can only suggest you get a second opinion from a qualified front end shop.
Have them inspect the front end, get a quote for the repairs (if needed) and compare the two results

[Dan]

That’s what I was thinking, I’m no front end expert either unfortunately. I think I may try to find a front end shop that will charge me a few bucks to verify this goodyear’s findings. The only thing they told me that makes sense to me, with my experience, is that I need 2 tires. I know I need to replace that strut, I’m surprised that I noticed it but they didn’t. Does anybody know exactly what it means for a car to have negative caster?

Also how are ball joints bad when they aren’t physically worn?

I am wondering what negative effects will arise from driving it.

[Richard Kirshy]

I am wondering what negative effects will arise from driving it.

http://www.rctek.com/technical/handling/caster_angle_advanced.html

Also how are ball joints bad when they aren’t physically worn?

http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/116

[Dan]

Thank you so much that helped tremendously. I drove the car to work this morning (about 60 miles) and the car handled fine but I do feel the negative caster. The car was completely under control the entire time. The caster isn’t spec but within that .5 tolerance that everybody says. I did hear a slight popping sound when releasing the throttle at speed, but not around curves or bumps. I do have to steer the car back out of a turn, I guess that could be the ball joints, but there is no looseness in the studs. There was an intermittent shimmy (death wobble maybe) but it didn’t cause the car to lose control or anything. Should I replace the ball joints?
I would hate to throw away money on parts that may not be bad. Any other way to test them? There is no play when grabbing the tires and shaking.

[Richard Kirshy]

As I said… I’m not a front end expert.
Grabbing the tire and shaking is one way, another is to lift the tire off the ground and using a bar or 2X4 try lifting from underneath the tire to see if there is vertical movement.
Suggest you find a qualified front end shop and have them inspect the front end and determine if there is any issue.

[Dan]

I’m thinking that I will have to. I am just a poor man trying to fix his car, how much do you think a checkup would cost. I have to check the ball joints again after work today but I may just replace them as well. It may be fixed as far as it can be, some people have said frame damage is a cause but as far as I can tell there is none. My mom’s boyfriend works in a shop that fixes race cars, he took a look and couldn’t verify frame damage either. He looked at my alignment results and said don’t worry about spec, the tolerance is fine and that’s what u should worry about. I know that my car isn’t a race car but he may be right. What are your thoughts?

[Richard Kirshy]

I would assume pricing will vary from shop to shop.
But consider the hourly rate the shop charges, I can’t see it being more than 1 hours worth.
Do a good check on the ball joints first.
If there is an issue with the ball joints.. replace them…. you wouldn’t want to fold a tire.
If you suspect frame damage, it should be relatively easy to spot.

My thoughts….
You stated you have a damaged strut.
If you check your ball joints and find them to be good.
If you find not evidence of frame damage.
Start saving for a replacement set of struts.

Repair what is needed, no sense replacing parts if they are not faulty.

[Dan]

I fully agree. I don’t want to fold a tire, I have heard horror stories. Looks like a night of diagnosing. I was on the same page with the frame damage as well. The goodyear didn’t mention that either, Sendmail looking at the receipt it says possible cause is bent components (strut was all I noticed). I don’t have to much of a point of reference for anything else, it’s there an easy way to tell if like control arms are bent. The only way I can think is to find a boneyard and take pictures of their front ends and compare.

[Richard Kirshy]

If something is bent , IE: strut, linkage etc…
Chances are better than average that you’ll notice it.

[Dan]

I was thinking that too, like v with the strut. I think I’ll pick up a couple from rock auto since they have recommended oem replacements 100 bucks each. I don’t really want to cheap out on those. Well see if that can help. What parts control caster, I know of control arms and strut. Are there any others I should suspect?

[Richard Kirshy]

That is dependent to your specific front end set up..
Basic setups

Shims of various thickness at upper or lower control arm. 2. Eccentrics at upper or lower control arm and some use a strut rod for caster adjustment.

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[Dan]

I was out there last night looking at the front end and I am almost wondering if the control arms are backwards. I bought this car to make it a commute car but I don’t want to drive it long term until I fix it. I can’t find anything wrong with it other than this caster issue. I am sure that the control arms say which side they go on but I can’t see it without taking the arms off, which would be a pain if I am wrong. I also think that would cause premature wear to the ball joints, due to being on the wrong side. My caster is almost opposite what it should be. Could this be the cause?

[Richard Kirshy]

Anything is possible I guess, though I’ve never seen it myself.
Might try a internet search for your specific parts and try to match them up to what you have.

[Dan]

I actually was just watching a video with upper arm replacement on the same car. I think that the curve is backwards. I’m being that the guy who replaced them saw left on the arm and put it on the passenger side. I have seen that before, but only once.

I am at work and not near the car. I’m not sure this will work, but it is worth a shot. I asked my wife to take a picture on the upper arm connecting to the knuckle. This picture was taken on the passenger side. The front of the car is on the right of the pic. Does this arm look backwards to anybody?
It’s a 95 accord.

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