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I graduated Tech school and after 45 days on the job, I was told “Go Flat-Rate, or go somewhere else.” It was worse than you could possibly imagine.
I say we organize a massive, Nation-wide walk out during the busiest time of the year. All Flat-Rate shops will have every twisting wrench come in for work, put on our uniforms, and stand in the streets with picket signs saying things like: “Nation Wide Automotive Service strike! Shops hog all the profits while Technicians starve!” “Warranty service doesn’t pay!” “Your free inspection is money out of my pocket!”
Get TV news coverage going, Blitzkreig the Nation. All of a sudden, shops would realize they’re screwed. How many thousands of dollars per day per shop will be lost due to zero service work being performed?
I know it’s an insanely radical idea, maybe even to the point of extremist, but I guarantee you it would work quick, fast, and in a hurry. You can’t fire your entire service department and expect to survive.
What about the still out of work technicians, sitting at home waiting for a job to call them back? I bet those guys would be either watching the news, or joining us in the fight.
Bitching about it all over the internet isn’t going to solve anything. Laying down and allowing paychecks to dwindle is going to force us all into poverty.
When we make this work, we can shift our attention to the tool trucks too!
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Agreed that the flat rate system needs some work but I don’t think your approach would work for a couple of reasons. The first is that it doesn’t address the problem directly. I think shop owners would perceive it as an attack on their business and probably a lot of people would get fired. If you think they can’t fire you, think again. Unless you have an employment contract you are ’employed at will’ which means your employer can fire you at any time and not give any reason for doing so. You have no legal recourse to combat this. Second it doesn’t present a solution. I think if we’re going to have any real change we need to come up with a solution to the problem before doing something like that. If not we’re just pointing out a problem that I think everyone is aware of. I feel if you’re going to solve a problem you’ll need a solution to address it.
I’ve been thinking about this issue for some time hence the reason I’ve put it in so many of my videos. I’m hoping that some good solutions are presented and if and when they are I’m going to see what I can do to bring them to the attention of people who can make the difference. I’m not saying I have a ton of pull but I do have a presence in the automotive community that I may be able to use to my advantage on this topic. The truth is that we will have to give something up in exchange for loosing the flat rate system. If not I don’t think anyone would listen or take us seriously. In short I think we need a plan first and although the one you propose will get some attention I don’t think it will do anything to change the industry.
Well, I should clarify that I have no actual solution. What I mean to say is that we all have ideas and this is one extreme method for getting results. I would however, hope that a massive organized strike could protect us all from being fired. I would not think that it would be a safe idea to fire every technician and hope to replace them. This is the most important area for us all to join together to protect everybody.
IDK what the true answer to the flat-rate problem is. I was hoping to gather ideas from anyone/everyone willing to come up with any. Flat-rate was pure hell for me. I got to the point that I would flat out refuse to work on any kind of pay scale that is even similar to it.
One idea that I have heard is to pay everybody hourly. That’s fine by me as long as people can’t use hourly as an excuse to be lazy. And we need a fair hourly rate. As an example: After talking with the Driveability guy in my shop, I wouldn’t think $20/hr for 40 hours would be fair to him. (NOTE: IDK what he actually gets paid, just a number for refference.) I think that hourly pay should be based on specialty and years in the field. Let me see if I can come up with some reasonably fair numbers for innitial hiring of Technicians.
Entry Level/Lube Tech: $14.50/hr This may seem high, but we have student loans and tools to pay for.
Light duty maintenace (brakes, hoses, serp belts, flushes, etc) $15.25/hr
Suspension/Alignment Techs $18/Hr.
Interior specialist: $19/Hr.
Transmission Tech $20/hr.
Heavy Duty (I.E. Engine work) $23/hr
Driveability/Diagnostic $27/hr.
I would hope that these could be OK for basic numbers. Obviously training/Certificates would have to come with a pay increase as well as time in the industry, time spent in a particular specialty area, and time with the company.
I wasn’t entirely sure where to place each specialty area. I’m not trying to say that one is more difficult than another, or that this one should definitely pay more than that one. It’s just a rough outline to get the idea out there.
I think there should also be an incentive to upsell repairs. Obviously, shops would have to decide a specified dollar ammount of work per RO sold before the incentive kicks in. Or perhaps a certain ammount of upsells per technician per day to have incentive pay kick in. I would immagine that the dollar ammount per RO shouldn’t pay as highly as the incentive per Technician as the ammount per RO becomes “Luck of the draw” so to speak. This could leave room for Techs to claim that dispatchers are looking at ROs and giving the most likely upsell vehicles to their preffered Techs.
Also, I don’t want to call for a strike for the sake of calling one. I think that organization should occur within a shop where every tech can agree that they want the change, and can agree upon their shop’s attempt at a fair solution. Companies won’t pay without seeing benefit for the company itself. I think that Technicians who are paid fairly will be more enclined to produce higher quality/quantity of work.
Once the techs in a shop can all agree that they want flat-rate to go away, and have come up with their collective proposal, I would assume that the company that they work for would be more inclined to make a counter offer. Nothing is going to benefit the business as well as Flat-Rate seems to do. Businesses *are* going to resist our efforts to abolish/heavily alter the system. Here is where I should clarify that while a massive industry wide strike should be a last resort, we should all be prepared for such an event.My main hope here is to spark some ideas to really get the ball rolling. I know I have alot of loose or open ends, but perhaps others can add to the ideas I have presented. If not, then I remain open to any other ideas.
I hear you and once again I agree that the flat rate system could use an overhaul. I’ve already started a discussion on this very thing on another thread. There have been some great suggestions over there that you might want to check out. Here’s a link to that thread.
I don’t think we’d elicit the wanted public sympathy from a strike. The problem is in the way the public perceives us an industry. Look at how many forums are full of people who think every last one of us are out to rip them off for every last cent they have. We get looked at like Wall Street fat cats due to the public ignorance of what it is we actually do. They don’t realize the complexities of their vehicles. They watch the infomercials for companies like CarMD whose sales pitch is “never get ripped off at the repair shop again.” They think a scan tool for $50 is the same thing as a dealership level tool and its a magic box that tells you what is wrong with the car immediately. They have no idea of the investment we’ve made in knowledge. They have no idea the investment we’ve made in tools. They have no idea the toll that this work takes on our bodies. But the biggest hurdle to overcome that is this one:
They don’t actually give a damn.They make their car payments, drive in any way they feel like, ignore every bit of maintenance schedule they’ve been given and can’t be bothered to pop the hood or check tire pressures. Engine light means the car is running, right? Cause I only see it when the car is running. Ethanol is in regular gas anyway, so why not run E85? Its just a scam to make people buy the more expensive stuff. Won’t hurt a thing to save some cash on fuel. Besides, my neighbor puts it in his new car.
So here they come, limping the car in with steam rolling out of the engine compartment and the temp gauge is pegged. You cringe as you pop the hood and witness the mechanical carnage that has been needlessly ravaged by the ignorant owner. You properly diagnose the ruptured head gasket and you prepare an estimate that is reasonable for a proper repair job that you are going to put a guarantee on. You explain the problem to the customer and answer all their questions politely. But in their head you are a ripoff. You have just been found guilty.
Problem is that customer’s neighbor happens to work at Autozone, where only the best and brightest minds in the automotive kingdom exist. He had a leaking head gasket in his car 4 months ago and used a head gasket in a can. Its just fine now and fixed forever. Plus, you changed the valve cover gasket last year and so you must’ve done something to sabotage the car. Yes, you’re just trying to screw them out of their hard-earned money.
I’ve lost count of how many ignorant morons tried to accuse me of sabotage or bill padding when I had my own shop. I’m a moderator on a different forum site than here and people are posting constantly saying they don’t want to go to the shop and get ripped off so they want someone on the net who can’t even see the car to tell them exactly what is wrong and exactly what it will cost.
Until that perception of us changes in the public eye, we lack their support for leverage.
Those are all excellent points and right on topic. As I said it’s my hope that in some small way ETCG is able to shed some light on these issues if nothing else. Not saying I’ll be able to change the world but if nothing else get people talking about it.
Another part of the problem is that there actually ARE rip off artists out there that deserve that kind of treatment. I’ve seen lazy unmotivated techs ruin it for the rest of us that give a crap and take pride in our work. I think our approach should also address these people so we can find a way to weed them out or bring them over to the light side of the force.
I intend to spend as much time as I can on this issue as I feel it is the #1 thing we need to address in the industry today. It’s not easy to change public perception but that’s not going to stop me from trying.
Thanks for your input.
Just going to leave these here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk_wsT4r4S4
Jiffy Lube of all people has no business making those commercials. They’re the same shady company busted multiple times in multiple shops ripping people off intentionally. Check out these vids.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
[quote=”nickwarner” post=42560]Jiffy Lube of all people has no business making those commercials. They’re the same shady company busted multiple times in multiple shops ripping people off intentionally. Check out these vids.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.[/quote]
Those videos are irrelevant. The Jiffy Lube commercials play on prime time TV, adding to the stigma people have about us. The videos about how shady Jiffy Lube is, don’t. In our very own industry we have people out to make the real certified technicians look like thieves. How do you combat that?
Realistically you can’t. People see Jiffy Lube commercials and think they should go to Jiffy Lube because the rest of us are thieves. They see an investigative report on Jiffy Lube and think all of us are thieves. Either way we lose.They know they need us because they can’t fix their own vehicle, but all the while want more than anything to catch us in a scam, which they pretty much call anything they can’t understand in their limited knowledge of even the basic principles these machines operate on. Compound that with smart phones held by dumb people who think Wikipedia and Google hold the knowledge to everything and they’ll argue every last thing with you. Its like a high school kid trying to argue spaceships with a NASA engineer but no matter what you say they will never ever believe that you are right because it seems they genuinely WANT to believe that you are dishonest.
I once had a customer with about a 97 Cavalier come by with a nail in the rear tire. Plugged it right in front of her boyfriend, never even took the wheel off the car. Six months later she came in with the rear brakes worn out (imagine that, 220,000 miles on the thing). Her boyfriend flat out accused me of deliberately sabotaging the car to make that happen so that I could steal his hard-earned money. His logic for that is all mechanics know how to sabotage parts so that they fail early and thats for sure what I did since I was the last guy to touch it. Never mind the fact that he was standing next to me the entire time I was anywhere near the car and didn’t even remove the lugnuts. Thats his logic. He’s lucky he would only make that accusation over the phone. Were he standing in front of me saying that I do believe I would’ve been going to jail for quite some time after I gave him what he deserved. His girl called me a few hours later apologizing for him and I know she realized I had done nothing. But I guarantee you to this day he still would swear I did something to those brakes.
They aren’t going to change because they want to believe it. They need someone to villify. They can’t look in the mirror and see that they did the damage, that they neglected maintenance, that they are the only one to blame. Thats why those ads work. They cater to that attitude and keep the stereotype alive.
And the people couldn’t be happier because of it.
What upsets me is that the “Average Joe” does not understand the difference between Jiffy Lube/Quick Lube vs Certified repair shops. Jiffy Lubes, Valveolines & other quick lube places do not have legal licenses to do any other work then fluids & filters and most of there workers are just the weekend DIY’er that think they are an actual automotive technician. Gotten into plenty of arguements with employees of these companies, because they actually think there techs so I ask them “can I see your ASE’s” they go off saying that there’s no need to have them blah blah blah.
But some customer’s just drive me crazy because they are Mr./Mrs. know it all because either there cousin works at Jiffy Lube/Auto Zone or there uncle was a technician back in the 60’s.
I’ve said this over and over again.
Demand for qualified technicians is UP & Supply is going down sooner or later there will be no one wanting to work as a technician. Prices will sky rocket for service. Doe’s anyone agree or have there own opinion about my theory.
I can see eventually the US DOT stepping in and doing something similar to what canada’s MOT does. I’m sure our neighbors to the north might drop a post or two here if they see it. From my understanding from techs I’ve talked to up there, you can’t just call yourself a mechanic and turn a wrench. Its heavily regulated. Here any joe blow can get a building and call himself a shop. There they have to go to school, with a heavy emphasis on safety items like brakes, steering and suspension. They even have specific laws about how repairs are made in some instances. For heavy truck wheel bearings there is a very specific procedure to adjust them. After they have completed the proper school they must go through an apprenticeship and end up with the title of journeyman tech. Shops that are proven to have done sloppy work that creates a safety issue are shut down by MOT. While I think thats a bit extreme, I also think the canadian techs have a bit of a better image than we do because of that. Not only is there oversight on their work and repercussions for doing it improperly, these people receive the proper training in how to do this job the right way.
My local lube shops were great moneymakers for me when I had my own shop. Got lots of damaged oil pans from overtorque, a few engines from undertorque, suspension work that had been done before but they never bothered to get out a grease gun when they serviced it, pretty much easy money for me and I took my customers under the lift when possible and showed them what was happening. I always told them that if someone doesn’t know how to change your engine they shouldn’t be touching your engine. Look at Wal-Mart as another prime example. Just type Wal-Mart oil change into YouTube and see the carnage.
Spawned, you raise a good point about it being a rather futile battle to institute a change. It would require a complete shift in the paradigm of thought that the public currently has. But remember that 70 years ago there were black people who said the public would never see things any differently than they always had. Now we have a black president. It wasn’t a change that occurred overnight and it certainly didn’t come easily. But the major public way of thinking changed. While I can’t put the civil rights movement on the same level as the ass clowns at Jiffy Lube, it was the first comparison to come to mind.
Entry level, you are right that demand is going up. So are the overhead costs for these shops that employ us. Everyone has a lawyer for every little thing, insurance companies bend you over like they’re filming a sequel to Deliverance, cars are coming out needing more and more specialty tools than they ever did before and Uncle Sam hasn’t been sitting idle either. That piece of the pie that is the profit margin shrinks while our living expenses go up. Obviously wages need to go up to make this job lucrative enough to encourage more people to willing destroy their bodies and retire cripples. The labor rates cannot and will not stay the same as you predicted for those very reasons. I am fully in agreement with you on that, labor rates are only going up. I just have my doubts that the corporate shops will be sending much of anything of that higher rate to our pockets.
Fucking Spiffy Lube burns my biscuits, man. “Trained Technicians?” Hell, I worked there before I went to school, and I didn’t know anything.
I was reprimanded a lot for telling customers that you can’t extend your oil change intervals. I would give good reasons why Synthetic/Blended oil is better, but I would tell them: “Look at your sticker when you leave here.” We printed them 3 Months/3,000 Miles regardless. Jiffy swears up and down that Pennzoil Synthetic can go what is it now, 10,000 Miles? But the reminder sticker has the customer back in 3,000? There’s your proof that JL is retarded.Look, I’ll be honest: I’m stuck on the God damn Lube rack without a clue how to get off of it right now, but I write every last thing I can find on that R.O. for one reason, and one reason alone: When the customer comes back pissed off, it won’t be my ass.
Case in point: 08 Pont. Solstice 2.2L Ecotec turbo motor. I said: “Rear diff. housing wet w/fluid – rec. insp.”Dispatcher was all pissy when the customer had scheduled “Leak repair” and he (Dispatcher) was calling it a seep.
Rear-End guy came over and said: “This one is a leak because of the Recall/Campaign. Look here, see where it’s pissing out of the vent tube? Let me print the bulletin information from SI, and you can tell the customer it’s on us. Oh by the way, quit giving the kid (i.e. me) a hard time, can you read a fuckin R.O.? He recommended an ‘inspection’, not a service.”
Dispatcher sent me home early for it. WTF?We the technicians aren’t the rip off artists, the damned Service Advisors are! I notate all kinds of shit on my RO’s in order to protect my ass when it comes back.
SM tells me to stop looking at brake pads on LOFs, Senior Tech tells SM: “This $900+ 4-corner brake job came off of his waiter LOF. Look, his number, his handwriting, his words: “Bk. pads appear thin, rec. bk. insp., must pull tires for accuracy.”
3wk later, another customer came back pissed off that we didn’t tell them their brakes were worn out. I pointed out to my SM on the RO where I had written: “Frnt. bk. pads appear thin – rec. insp.”I’ll note: “Battery test results suggest 45% health, 11.61 Volts – Rec. further testing/insp.” But when it comes back, I get blamed until I show where I notated it.
If the upper radiator hose is leaking because the clamps aren’t tight, and the advisor sells a new radiator, thinking the neck is bad instead of selling the inspection, who’s fault is that?
The drama and politics of dealerships is why ive never worked at one and probably never will, I do know the pay and benefits are good, but Id rather be independent and comfortable at work than dealing with bullshit. I spent 3 years changing oil and tires at an independent shop while going to school, became ASE certified at 19, I changed jobs, went to a heavy truck shop, got lots of experience, then moved onto heavy line work and now work as an engine specialist, if i had a problem with a place i found another job and quit, its easy to get a job as a mechanic, at least around here it is, My advice- Your toolbox has wheels for a reason, change dealerships or even car makes and see how they workout for you.
This is interesting. I worked in the race car industry here in the UK for about 5 years before getting out to do something different. I now manage an old peoples home, so trust me I get the whole stigma thing. No-one likes mechanics, and everyone thinks all old peoples homes are bad even if they are fantastic. I was working between 80 and a 100 hours a week as a number 1 mechanic for £14,000 pre tax, £12,000 take home per year. In dollars this is about $18,000 a year take home after tax. It would be interesting to see how this fits in with your discussion.
As far as I can tell general road going vehicle mechanics and dealership mechanics earn an hourly rate. This is based on experience and certificates. Some earn more others earn less. A guy leaving straight out of college will earn around £9000 or $14000 a year. There was peice work, in other words you got paid for the amount of work you completed. This seems to have vanished in the last ten years. Mechanics or Tech’s as you guys call yourselves get a guide of how long the job should take still according to the manufacture but the customer pays for the hours worked on the car. If I were to take my cars to a dealer I would be paying about $157.00 per hour. Doesn’t matter what it was that needed doing.
On the jiffy lube point, we have qwick fit which is the equivalent of your jiffy lube. Qwick fit have the same kind of ads, “there’s nothing better than a qwick fit fitter”. Those in the know use the more apt slogan “there’s nothing Shi**ter than a s**t fit fitter”.
Also many of the guys you will see here are fitters and will throw parts at things left right and centre, only the old guys or guys like me who chose to do something different seem to be able to fix things anymore.
For example my girlfriends care failed it’s MOT (a test we have to do by law each year for vehicles over the age of 3 years) on emissions recently. Rather than identify and prove the fault, the guy wanted £790 + 20% tax of my money to fit a new catalyst. His argument was because it had surface rust and therefore it must be shot. Little did he know I knew what I was on about. I tested the cat, proved it was faulty and replaced it and the oxygen sensors myself for £300. I get that he was right about it, but it could have been so many other faults as he didn’t prove the fault.
I would love to know how your shops compare.
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