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Greetings,
I have a problem with my 99 Pontiac Sunfire 2.4L Manual Trans. and I hope someone can take the time to read this and help out! I am new here by the way.
It started when the clutch pedal got to the grabbing point, a grinding noise was coming from to left front end, the car won’t move an inch! I put in in 2nd gear, 3rd… it won’t move and the grinding continues. I noticed when I press on the clutch all the way down the grinding noise goes away. When I let it off as if I were to move with 1st gear engaged, the grinding comes back on and, again, the car won’t move. I first thought it was one of the clutch components that was shot so I decided to pull the transmission and I did not see anything wrong with the clutch assembly. I decided, however, to replace the clutch as I was not sure if the Release Bearing/Slave Cylinder assembly failed. I also put on a new flywheel. So new LuK Kit installed, bled the clutch and put everything back together, still same issue. Is it the Transmission? Well, I went to the junkYard and picked up one, they told me it’s in working condition. I installed it, same problem. Is it faulty? What am I missing here? I would also like to add that you can shift to 1st gear, without pressing on the clutch, it grinds a little bit, and I just wanted to try that for further diagnosis and may be an important piece of information that you may need to know.I look forward to any response on this issue, Thank you very much!
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[quote=”wysetech” post=80729]Does the speedometer work while this is happening? I have a hard time believing that 2 transmissions have the same problem but I don’t see it being anything else if the axles are ok. If the noise goes away when the clutch is depressed and makes the noise when released I would say that the clutch is engaged and turning the input shaft in the transmission.[/quote]
Its not two transmissions Bill. He pulled the transmission to do the clutch because of the noise, put it back together and no good, still making the noise and wont move. He has another one on hold, but wants another opinion that the transmission is what is bad.
If it was the clutch, something should have changed after the clutch job, if it was the axle, it should have been noticed when he pulled the axles.
I am not sure why everyone thinks he changed the transmission.
[quote=”wysetech” post=80729]Does the speedometer work while this is happening? I have a hard time believing that 2 transmissions have the same problem but I don’t see it being anything else if the axles are ok. If the noise goes away when the clutch is depressed and makes the noise when released I would say that the clutch is engaged and turning the input shaft in the transmission.[/quote]
Yes, the speedometer works when I put in any gear while it’s grinding like crazy and it won’t budge. And If I keep hitting the gas, and when the speedometer gets to 20 or so I see the shifter up light on the dashboard. So that tells me it’s in gear but maybe stuck between gears and the grinding gets louder as I put it in next gear.
[quote=”Raistian77″ post=80730][quote=”wysetech” post=80729]Does the speedometer work while this is happening? I have a hard time believing that 2 transmissions have the same problem but I don’t see it being anything else if the axles are ok. If the noise goes away when the clutch is depressed and makes the noise when released I would say that the clutch is engaged and turning the input shaft in the transmission.[/quote]
Its not two transmissions Bill. He pulled the transmission to do the clutch because of the noise, put it back together and no good, still making the noise and wont move. He has another one on hold, but wants another opinion that the transmission is what is bad.
If it was the clutch, something should have changed after the clutch job, if it was the axle, it should have been noticed when he pulled the axles.
I am not sure why everyone thinks he changed the transmission.[/quote]
I am not sure if I mentioned it in the first post, I think I did, but it’s a 2nd transmission that I got from the junk yard and installed it, same issue. Thank you!
I must be missing something or need a few more crowns N cola. He stated that the clutch didn’t help the problem so he installed a used transmission and it still has the same problem.
That would mean that the original and the replacement have the same problem.
Please advise me if you think I’m just stupid.
[quote=”Raistian77″ post=80730][quote=”wysetech” post=80729]Does the speedometer work while this is happening? I have a hard time believing that 2 transmissions have the same problem but I don’t see it being anything else if the axles are ok. If the noise goes away when the clutch is depressed and makes the noise when released I would say that the clutch is engaged and turning the input shaft in the transmission.[/quote]
Its not two transmissions Bill. He pulled the transmission to do the clutch because of the noise, put it back together and no good, still making the noise and wont move. He has another one on hold, but wants another opinion that the transmission is what is bad.
If it was the clutch, something should have changed after the clutch job, if it was the axle, it should have been noticed when he pulled the axles.
I am not sure why everyone thinks he changed the transmission.[/quote]
Sorry I meant this is the 1st transmission replacement; I removed the Trans that came with the car after the clutch job, had the same issue and I got my first Trans. replacement from the junkyard, still same issue.
[quote=”Marigh” post=80732][quote=”Raistian77″ post=80730][quote=”wysetech” post=80729]Does the speedometer work while this is happening? I have a hard time believing that 2 transmissions have the same problem but I don’t see it being anything else if the axles are ok. If the noise goes away when the clutch is depressed and makes the noise when released I would say that the clutch is engaged and turning the input shaft in the transmission.[/quote]
Its not two transmissions Bill. He pulled the transmission to do the clutch because of the noise, put it back together and no good, still making the noise and wont move. He has another one on hold, but wants another opinion that the transmission is what is bad.
If it was the clutch, something should have changed after the clutch job, if it was the axle, it should have been noticed when he pulled the axles.
I am not sure why everyone thinks he changed the transmission.[/quote]
I am not sure if I mentioned it in the first post, I think I did, but it’s a 2nd transmission that I got from the junk yard and installed it, same issue. Thank you![/quote]
Well Crap, lol sorry I though you had it, but not installed it yet.
Okay well, I have to agree with everyone else, I have never seen two manuals fail in the exact same way. If your 2nd one was bad it would be much more likely that it would fail in a different way.
Dang, that makes this much more harder.
I would want to say your friction disk is not meshing correctly with the input shaft. But, two clutches with the same issue, not likely and now you have had 2 input shafts and it is not likely they both are bad in the same way. Something wrong with the CV would explain the grinding and the not going, but it would not cause the trans to be shifted into gear with the clutch out.
It almost has to be something in the shift fork keeping the transmission just on the side of being disengaged.
Hey, is that slave cylinder inside the transmission bell housing?
Okay, looked it up and yep you have the slave cylinder that bolts up inside the housing, like Ford did for a long time. That slave cylinder is jammed, seen it before. Putting it inside abuses the hell out of them, heat/cold cycles and all the dust just does a number on them. They get jammed up and feel fine pedal wise but wont let the trans fully disengage. The ones Ford used were notorious for leaking so at the shop we replace all internal slave cylinders when we do clutch work.
Try a new slave cylinder before spending any more money, that thing is the true weak link in that system and it’s jamming would explain all your symptoms. The reason it gets quiet when you press on the pedal is it can still move forward just fine but not all the way back. The reason the pedal feels fine is the same reason disc brakes dont feel weird after the pads have worn awhile, they self-adjust. I’ll bet your fluid is a tad on the low side, because a bit more of it is trapped in the slave cylinder.
[quote=”wysetech” post=80733]I must be missing something or need a few more crowns N cola. He stated that the clutch didn’t help the problem so he installed a used transmission and it still has the same problem.
That would mean that the original and the replacement have the same problem.
Please advise me if you think I’m just stupid.[/quote]
No, I misread his post, I thought he had a junkyard trans ready , but not in yet. I’ll admit when I am wrong. 😳
[quote=”Raistian77″ post=80735][quote=”Marigh” post=80732][quote=”Raistian77″ post=80730][quote=”wysetech” post=80729]Does the speedometer work while this is happening? I have a hard time believing that 2 transmissions have the same problem but I don’t see it being anything else if the axles are ok. If the noise goes away when the clutch is depressed and makes the noise when released I would say that the clutch is engaged and turning the input shaft in the transmission.[/quote]
Its not two transmissions Bill. He pulled the transmission to do the clutch because of the noise, put it back together and no good, still making the noise and wont move. He has another one on hold, but wants another opinion that the transmission is what is bad.
If it was the clutch, something should have changed after the clutch job, if it was the axle, it should have been noticed when he pulled the axles.
I am not sure why everyone thinks he changed the transmission.[/quote]
I am not sure if I mentioned it in the first post, I think I did, but it’s a 2nd transmission that I got from the junk yard and installed it, same issue. Thank you![/quote]
Well Crap, lol sorry I though you had it, but not installed it yet.
Okay well, I have to agree with everyone else, I have never seen two manuals fail in the exact same way. If your 2nd one was bad it would be much more likely that it would fail in a different way.
Dang, that makes this much more harder.
I would want to say your friction disk is not meshing correctly with the input shaft. But, two clutches with the same issue, not likely and now you have had 2 input shafts and it is not likely they both are bad in the same way. Something wrong with the CV would explain the grinding and the not going, but it would not cause the trans to be shifted into gear with the clutch out.
It almost has to be something in the shift fork keeping the transmission just on the side of being disengaged.
Hey, is that slave cylinder inside the transmission bell housing?[/quote]
The grinding is definitely coming from the Transmission. I know this because, under the hood, I can move the shifter with my hands to right and left and feel and hear the gears or synchros grinding while the clutch pedal is released and it is in Neutral.
Yes, the salve cylinder/release bearing is inside the Trans. bell housing, looks like this http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server700/a4145/products/5593/images/7535/N1761_600__16419.1380754777.1280.1280.jpgDoes it grind when you don’t touch anything? Just start it with the stick in neutral and let go of everything, is the a noise?
If it is quiet and only makes the grind when you try and go into gears than it is like Xyius said. The noise is from the gear train barely turning over, enough to make the grinding noise but not enough torque to keep you out of the gear. Same reason you can’t go forward or backward, not enough pressure on the friction disk to transfer torque.
Oh I have to apologize my misreading of your post got the thread going backwards for a bit, the other members had it dead on its got to be a shift fork issue. Especially since you have that internal design.
[quote=”Raistian77″ post=80736]The reason it gets quiet when you press on the pedal is it can still move forward just fine but not all the way back. .[/quote]
In order to test if it is jammed, I am thinking I should open the bleeder valve and pump the fluid out, that should make it go all the way back, and see if the grinding will still be present.
How does that sound?[quote=”Raistian77″ post=80740]Does it grind when you don’t touch anything? Just start it with the stick in neutral and let go of everything, is the a noise?
If it is quiet and only makes the grind when you try and go into gears than it is like Xyius said. The noise is from the gear train barely turning over, enough to make the grinding noise but not enough torque to keep you out of the gear. Same reason you can’t go forward or backward, not enough pressure on the friction disk to transfer torque.
Oh I have to apologize my misreading of your post got the thread going backwards for a bit, the other members had it dead on its got to be a shift fork issue. Especially since you have that internal design.[/quote]
That’s ok, thanks for your responses. It does grind a little bit when it’s in Neutral. When I put it in any gear the grinding gets louder and when I put it back in Neutral it still grinds but not as loud and if I keep pumping the clutch pedal it gets quieter and when I let go of everything when in Neutral, there is still some grinding, hardly audibale, but it’s there.
Set the emergency brake and raise the car so that both front tires are off of the ground and place the transmission in 1st with the engine off. Turn one front tire. Does the other tire turn smoothly in the opposite direction? Or, any roughness or unusual sounds? Please report what you find.
Raise the car so that only one front tire is off of the ground. With the engine off and the transmission in neutral turn the raised tire. Does the tire rotate smoothly. Please report what you find.
Put the transmission in first gear and do the second test again. Can you turn the tire. Put a little grunt into it. Please report back what you find.
[quote=”barneyb” post=80777]Set the emergency brake and raise the car so that both front tires are off of the ground and place the transmission in 1st with the engine off. Turn one front tire. Does the other tire turn smoothly in the opposite direction? Or, any roughness or unusual sounds? Please report what you find.
Raise the car so that only one front tire is off of the ground. With the engine off and the transmission in neutral turn the raised tire. Does the tire rotate smoothly. Please report what you find.
Put the transmission in first gear and do the second test again. Can you turn the tire. Put a little grunt into it. Please report back what you find.[/quote]
I will do that, but I need to mentioned this. When the engine is off and it’s in 1st gear, the car does not roll forward. Same thing when it’s set in Reverse, it does not roll back. Does that tell us that gears are kind of engaged?
[quote=”Raistian77″ post=80736]Okay, looked it up and yep you have the slave cylinder that bolts up inside the housing, like Ford did for a long time. That slave cylinder is jammed, seen it before. Putting it inside abuses the hell out of them, heat/cold cycles and all the dust just does a number on them. They get jammed up and feel fine pedal wise but wont let the trans fully disengage. The ones Ford used were notorious for leaking so at the shop we replace all internal slave cylinders when we do clutch work.
Try a new slave cylinder before spending any more money, that thing is the true weak link in that system and it’s jamming would explain all your symptoms. The reason it gets quiet when you press on the pedal is it can still move forward just fine but not all the way back. The reason the pedal feels fine is the same reason disc brakes dont feel weird after the pads have worn awhile, they self-adjust. I’ll bet your fluid is a tad on the low side, because a bit more of it is trapped in the slave cylinder.[/quote]
Ok, so I got all the fluid out of the Release Bearing by doing this: Valve open, clutch pedal is pushed, fluid out, valve is closed, pedal is released, kind of reverse of bleeding. I repeated the same process till fluid stopped flowing out. The Pedal was completely loose and down to the floor. By now the Release Bearing should go all the way back. I turned the engine on and grinding did not get any quieter. I put the fluid back in and bled the clutch system, again, the grinding stops completely when I press on the pedal. When I removed the Transmission the 2nd time, the Release Bearing was disengaged completely, and it should especially if the clutch pedal is not pushed and the hydraulic line is disconnected.
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