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Okay. Full disclosure. I am a retired automotive engineer. I spent 28+ years working directly or indirectly on automotive engine management systems, from the days prior to fuel injection up until the middle of the past decade. While not working on diagnostic procedures or software directly, I was constantly “rubbing elbows” with those who were.
First, BY FAR, the most important tool is the thing between your ears and the knowledge, from training or experience, that you have in it ! You have to have excellent basic knowledge the 4 stroke engine (suck, squish, bang, blow) and what it take to run (fuel, air, spark) and what it take to make it run right (the proper amount of fuel, the proper amount of air and spark of sufficient “quantity” at the appropriate time). If you don’t have an excellent command of these basics, forget it.
What I am saying is that diagnostics today and in the foreseeable future, will (in most cases) not pinpoint the exact part to replace (best example is a lean condition; dozens of things can cause it). It is only the proper interpretation of the “data” (codes, visual inspections, voltage/resistance readings) by a human being, plus addition “data gathering” (validating that the repair procedure resolve the issue) that will result in satisfying the customer, even if it is yourself.
Now having said all that, I’m going to off a bit on a tangent.
Repair places that charge the customer for “pulling codes” are, IMHO, “ripping off” the customer. Pulling engine/transmission/ABS/dashboard/infotainment codes should be a a “courtesy” to the customer. I would suggest that it be done by the service writer. I might accept a “small” charge to be waived it additional diagnostics/repairs are performed. And based on what I previously said, a service writer may only be able to say, “You have a lean condition. Additional ‘hands on’ diagnostics are required at $XX/hour.” The customer may not like this but it is honest.
I question the “value” of expensive tools, from simple wrenches to advanced diagnostic tools. Are they really worth it ? Or to say it the other way, do they make the mechanic that more efficient and therefore reduce the cost to the customer ? I “twisted wrenches” for a living for very few years, but I have been my extended family’s shade tree mechanic for over 45 years. Would SnapOn wrenches make me a better/more efficient mechanic ? Obviously, “No !”. Could I get by with Harbor Freight tools ? Likely. Do you need a Fluke/SnapOn/Blue point DMM/DVOM. Even a pro can’t really justify their cost. (Get one with a rubber outer guard, you will use that. Buy or make up additional test leads/connectors. They can be more important than the meter itself.) I still have not found the need to buy even a simple code scanner, but I do understand that it is now a basic tool. I still question the value of any “advanced” diagnostic tool, except in large shops. $5,000, plus the cost of software updates, is a lot of coin for a small shop.
[quote=”theoldwizard1″ post=61797]Okay. Full disclosure. I am a retired automotive engineer. I spent 28+ years working directly or indirectly on automotive engine management systems, from the days prior to fuel injection up until the middle of the past decade. While not working on diagnostic procedures or software directly, I was constantly “rubbing elbows” with those who were.
First, BY FAR, the most important tool is the thing between your ears and the knowledge, from training or experience, that you have in it ! You have to have excellent basic knowledge the 4 stroke engine (suck, squish, bang, blow) and what it take to run (fuel, air, spark) and what it take to make it run right (the proper amount of fuel, the proper amount of air and spark of sufficient “quantity” at the appropriate time). If you don’t have an excellent command of these basics, forget it.
What I am saying is that diagnostics today and in the foreseeable future, will (in most cases) not pinpoint the exact part to replace (best example is a lean condition; dozens of things can cause it). It is only the proper interpretation of the “data” (codes, visual inspections, voltage/resistance readings) by a human being, plus addition “data gathering” (validating that the repair procedure resolve the issue) that will result in satisfying the customer, even if it is yourself.
Now having said all that, I’m going to off a bit on a tangent.
Repair places that charge the customer for “pulling codes” are, IMHO, “ripping off” the customer. Pulling engine/transmission/ABS/dashboard/infotainment codes should be a a “courtesy” to the customer. I would suggest that it be done by the service writer. I might accept a “small” charge to be waived it additional diagnostics/repairs are performed. And based on what I previously said, a service writer may only be able to say, “You have a lean condition. Additional ‘hands on’ diagnostics are required at $XX/hour.” The customer may not like this but it is honest.
I question the “value” of expensive tools, from simple wrenches to advanced diagnostic tools. Are they really worth it ? Or to say it the other way, do they make the mechanic that more efficient and therefore reduce the cost to the customer ? I “twisted wrenches” for a living for very few years, but I have been my extended family’s shade tree mechanic for over 45 years. Would SnapOn wrenches make me a better/more efficient mechanic ? Obviously, “No !”. Could I get by with Harbor Freight tools ? Likely. Do you need a Fluke/SnapOn/Blue point DMM/DVOM. Even a pro can’t really justify their cost. (Get one with a rubber outer guard, you will use that. Buy or make up additional test leads/connectors. They can be more important than the meter itself.) I still have not found the need to buy even a simple code scanner, but I do understand that it is now a basic tool. I still question the value of any “advanced” diagnostic tool, except in large shops. $5,000, plus the cost of software updates, is a lot of coin for a small shop.[/quote]
I’m honored to have you joint the conversation. As to your point of diagnostic fees, I break it down like this. A flat 1 hour fee needs to be on the table to start with. You might be surprised at how many people come in, thinking the repair will be free. If customers could walk in, get their codes read for free, you’d loose a buttload of business not to mention waste everybody’s time. The reason is because once a customer found out the cost of the repair they’d be out the door trying to find a cheaper means to the end. In addition, you can’t be pulling techs off of paying jobs to do stuff like this without paying them. Most techs are flat rate which means they get paid on what they do. I can’t tell you how frustrating it is to be working on a money making car and a service writer comes to you and asks for a ‘favor’ for a customer. Those ‘favors’ many times turn out to be freebees that cut into your bottom line. Not to mention taking time away from customers that have already paid for a repair. Before you say the service writer can pull the codes and pass the information along to the techs, think again. What are you paying the technician for in that case? Don’t cheapen what a technician does to try and work around a diagnostic fee. Pissing off your workforce is not good policy. Wasting a technicians time is also a bad idea.
That said, charge the 1 hour fee. Let the customer know up front the cost and have them sign off on it. The fee includes more than just pulling the codes however. Many times you need to do some testing to confirm your diagnosis. Maybe you have to break out a smoke machine to check for leaks in the evap system. Maybe you need to do some electrical testing to confirm a short or open. Maybe you need to go on an extended test drive to hear the noise on a particular road. This testing is included in this hour. Now, when you find the problem and come up with a repair solution, approach the customer and let them know the cost of the repair with as accurate an estimate you can come up with. IF they OK the repair then if applicable, roll in the diagnostic fee into the total bill. Sometimes you need to remove plugs when doing a diagnosis. Sometimes you have to tear half the interior apart to check one connector. This way you don’t have to put that stuff back together and the customer doesn’t get charged twice to do work that’s already half done. Also, if the customer decides to bail after they find out the cost of the repair, the shop and technician are already getting compensated for their time.
That’s just how I approach it. I will admit that some shops abuse diagnostic fees. I’d also wager that these shops aren’t doing to well in the first place which is why they choose to do business this way. If they were doing good business, I’d think they’d demonstrate some integrity and pride in their work. In my opinion, it’s the customers that expect repairs to be free or cheap that are the problem. (I’m not including you in this as I understand your argument). These people are a constant headache because they don’t realize for quality repair and diagnostics, you need to pay a price. The knowledge and experience a technician accumulates in a career is VERY valuable. If that value is not respected then I show them the door.
[quote=”EricTheCarGuy” post=61864]I’m honored to have you joint the conversation. [/quote]
And I, sir, honor your opinion and commitment to your “craft” !
As to your point of diagnostic fees, I break it down like this. A flat 1 hour fee needs to be on the table to start with. You might be surprised at how many people come in, thinking the repair will be free. If customers could walk in, get their codes read for free, you’d loose a buttload of business not to mention waste everybody’s time. The reason is because once a customer found out the cost of the repair they’d be out the door trying to find a cheaper means to the end.
I understand where you are coming from. You do also know, that today, there is no real reason why the code and the condition can not be displayed on the dashboard.
In addition, you can’t be pulling techs off of paying jobs to do stuff like this without paying them. Most techs are flat rate which means they get paid on what they do. I can’t tell you how frustrating it is to be working on a money making car and a service writer comes to you and asks for a ‘favor’ for a customer. Those ‘favors’ many times turn out to be freebees that cut into your bottom line. Not to mention taking time away from customers that have already paid for a repair.
I agree with you 100%
Before you say the service writer can pull the codes and pass the information along to the techs, think again. What are you paying the technician for in that case? Don’t cheapen what a technician does to try and work around a diagnostic fee. Pissing off your workforce is not good policy. Wasting a technicians time is also a bad idea.
Perhaps this is where we need to “agree to disagree”. Pulling codes is not really diagnostics. It is a “courtesy” to the customer, which is why most large auto parts stores do it free of charge. Note, that I had said the writer would inform the customer after pulling the codes there would be a diagnostic charge.
I guess my point is, that with experience (Hmmm … didn’t you do a video on “experience” recently ?) good writers and technicians (when did being called a “mechanic” become second class ?) know that certain codes on certain cars require the same repair, without additional diagnostics ! I just watched ScannerDanner’s video on a P0405 on a Taurus. With that trouble code on that car, even without the live data showing out of range voltage, any mechanic who has work opn Ford products would have swapped that sensor (D@MN; I thought they would be making better DPFEs by now !)
That said, charge the 1 hour fee. Let the customer know up front the cost and have them sign off on it.
Would YOU personally charge a 1 hour diagnostic fee above and beyond the R&R price for the Taurus DPFE replacement is just mentioned ?
The fee includes more than just pulling the codes however.
Again, I agree with you 100%.
That’s just how I approach it.
This could also just be a “way of doing business” that differs from a small shop to a large dealership.
I will admit that some shops abuse diagnostic fees.
Perhaps this is what p!sses me off ! Not every repair requires 1 hour a diagnostic. (How many technicians know that a “crank, no start” can be caused by a clogged IAC ? I “remotely” diagnosed one by telephone in less than 5 minutes after a repair shop installed a new fuel pump on my nieces car.) Some require more.
Perhaps my problem is I “know too much” ! With my background I feel diagnostic charge are sometimes (frequently ?) just away to make profit. I have a car in for A/C work at the moment. I was told up front that it would cost $40 to pump down the system and check for leaks. No problem ! That is less than 1 hour at most shops. I have a problem with being charged 1 hour to pull codes and say, “we have seen that 1000 times, the repair is …”.
In my opinion, it’s the customers that expect repairs to be free or cheap that are the problem.
I am sorry you have to deal with people like that. Workers should get paid for the work they perform. Craftsman should be paid and lauded far and wide and perhaps rewarded with a six pack of their favorite adult beverage) !
P.S. I love watching Eric have a “hard time” with a connector, bolt, etc. Keep repeating your little tips (“Start all bolts first before running them down”). I going to try your tip on clamping the brake hoses and opening the bleeder before compressing the caliper piston on the next brake job I do (averaging about 2-3/year for family and friends).
It is now on newer cars with 40+ modules on separate CAN buses can take upwards of 40 minutes to check every module on the vehicle for codes. And in the future it will only be more modules and more communication networks, it might be speed up but still will take a fair amount of time just to check codes.
I agree to disagree with not charging to pull codes. I personally like to check all modules for codes and go back to the customer with what we have found and see how much they are willing to spend on diagnostic time before proceeding.
I like Frank Massey’s way of going about diagnosing, He does diagnosing in separate sections and gets approval prior to proceeding to help prevent time being wasted and not being paid for. He also keeps the customer informed on each step of the process.
Hey Eric,
I do a lot of electrical work so first off, my power probe is always out. I use google, identifix, and mitchell pro a hell of a lot. I have my old Genesis which is pretty much just used for the 4 chanel scope and my new Autel scanner. I have a couple of different style short finders. I use my smoke machine a lot not just for evap leaks but also to smoke the vacuum system to find leaks. I, believe it or not, still use my test light a lot, despite having the 2 power probes and I love my Fluke 77, even though its getting pretty damn old now. I utilize my leak down tester and compresion tester a lot. My Snap-On borescope comes in very handy, espically with interference engines that have broken the timing belt, its nice to see the top of a piston to make sure no valve contact marks are there, if so see the leak down tester. I could go on all day about my tools. Total investment after 15 years is around $50K, counting the box.
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