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wow. This is looking more and more like the consumer electronics industry with this side of things.
It doesn’t bother me too much because of my IT/ Electronics grounding.
I don’t think the changes will be too far beyond what we are already used to.
What does bother me is the lack of repair info that likely to be forthcoming ( and is far more likely to come from users and groups on the internet as it does for many things) because dealer will probably just swap faulty units out and they’ll be sent somewhere else for repair or recycling or just be discarded. It may well end up cheaper to just replace them anyway. Just Like other car parts. Most people I know don’t bother repairing TV’s or dvd’s or VCR’s anymore, usually because the repair will cost as much as a new one unless you know exactly what to look for and how to DIY or figure out how to DIY fix it.
The Diagnostic situation has been around for nearly as long as the OBD-II standard anyway most manufacturers have the own extended protocol that runs on the OBD port anyway what gives them access to many, many, more subsystems ( not vital to engine/HAVC/ABS operation) already that wouldn’t come up on a bog standard obd-II scan tool also these can give you far more useful info than the standard obd-ii scan tool as I found out on my 1998 VW golf. That should give diagnostic info like signal level from various antennas, indicating possible faults with those antennas, and other sensors, and even the devices themselves.
The possibly of incomplete and buggy software installed on these devices that could affect the operation of the basics of the car if these devices become too heavily integrated becomes normal. and The potential for privacy invasion, and new opportunities for theifs. In the consumer Electronics sector there are many companies who just struggle to even get the basic functionality right.
I can see firmware/software updates becoming a normal thing also automatic updates if via the internet, do screw up occasionally. People already get pee’d off with blu-ray players and the odd occasion when they do need to update it to play a new disc and the potential to brick the kit while updating it. you could end up with a situation like xbox live where you can’t get on xbox-live without updates. I can’t see this situation being acceptable if these things that require updates to even use the basic functions of your car.
Usually there is a fail safe to try again with failed updates and this might open up an quick money easy fix for some in the motor industry too if it gets that far.
seriously though in an ideal world most of the telematics stuff like a car radio needs to stay as a accessory that you can choose for your single/double din bay ( or an extension box for more computing power than can be linked to it somwhere else in the car) which you can pick and chose going as simple or comprehensive as you want while having no affect on the drivability and basic operation of the car. I mean Hell you can already buy some really cool double din units that Literally can do everything from sat nav to bluetooth, phone, internet, video player linked to many screens that kicks the manufacturers systems butts anyway. with options for big brother to watch you like a halk if you agree to them. The only thing that most don’t have at the moment is a link like an obd line so these devices have the potential to monitor you car things like speed, sensor data, health status’s and the ability to lock unlock or start without an additional interface which cost a heck of alot.
How many people really want a system like onstar built into there car that’s like big brother designed to track everything they do in the car everywhere they go, how fast, how they drive, even the built in mobile phone can be activated remotly and abused to listen into conversations. There is no easy way to limit what the system transmits back to base, without disabling it or if it’s even possible figuring out which wire(s) to cut so the GPS sat nav works but it cannot get mobile phone network access to call home.
Like Facebook I really don’t like these people having more info than is nessasary about me, because alot of these companies are awful loose with it. If it’s like facebook it’s really not hard for those with ill intentions to find info and use it for fraud. It could, completely innosent, like trying to sell you a service when due (still can be annoying being called up cold), or selling it to insurance companies so that can monitor your driving habits without your consent, to a worst case senario allowing criminals access with fully blown hack give theifs access and steal your car and stop you from and the law from tracking it.
You might want a system to track or shut down your car if stolen, most intelligent people who know the possible implications that such technology brings will want to be able to dictate there own terms and conditions or pick and choose from other providers. and also the ability to switch some hardware out if it becomes obsolete or change provider software or hardware if you learn your system has become exploitable!! Last thing most of us would want here is to have to buy a whole new car for an issue like this( a manufacturers potential wet dream or nightmare ).
Even manufacturers get it very wrong for example http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2169857/Alarming-moment-thieves-silently-steal-BMW-programming-blank-key-cost-just-70.html because There is no internal sensor near the window or obd port on the drivers side. The after market solutions for this issue are quite frankly brilliant and bring all the addition options like a remote start as well as fixing the blind spot.
With probably a new standard like an extended iso interface ( another add-on connector to the current power and speaker standard plugs that does not need to be plugged in for older kit ) which would enable communications with the car to get info like you can through the OBD port, and other sensors that may or may not be equipped to the car, Like antennas for GPS, L band satellite, FM,am, mobile phone/internet, wifi, cameras, parking sensors. Some of these are standard already but alot are not.
Another thing is the LAW.
I know in the UK Video players installed into the car have to have a wire attached to the handbrake if installed in the front of the vehicle to prevent playback when the handbrake is released!!
Consider television sets. When I was a child they had “television repairmen”. Remember those guys?
But I imagine the next generations will be running around in something very different than cars. Some sort of little personal mobility modules that don’t even have four wheels any more.
That’s probably a good thing though. Ever notice there are more cars than people now days? I’ll pull up somewhere thinking the place is packed with a dozen cars out front, and there will only be three people inside. What’s up with that?
I see that as something thats going to change in a dramatic way. We think cars will never go away but thats what I used to say about rock n’ roll.
But yeah, sooner or later we’ll be buying our vehicles at Best Buy and ordering parts off Newegg.[quote=”jeffrey” post=45922]Consider television sets. When I was a child they had “television repairmen”. Remember those guys?
[/quote]Funny you say that, My TV is in for repair, Id’ do it myself if it wasn’t for the warenty. Still, they would of swapped it out for a new one if it wasn’t worth £2000. I still Fix TV’s today as a hobby or keep some old CRT’s living. It’s surprisingly cheep if you take labour cost out of the equation.
Rock ‘n’ Roll Still alive and kicking. 🙂
What is scary is just how fast technology is progressing and how hard it is to keep pace and consider the consequences of it all, while trying to be a non super geek or nerd and have a life.
I guess in your country things don’t change as quickly. That has its advantages. Gives you time to adjust.
Things Change plenty fast enough. Rock bands still the rounds at pubs and clubs here, and some dammed good ones too.
I am absolutely in the old school camp where less is more. I like power windows and door locks but that’s it. I also like my factory radio occasionally. I enjoy driving the car without any other distractions.
Manufacturers do not have to give you the source code to help fix the car, just the tools. Even if they had to supply the software to tool designers they just send compiled APIs and the list of calls to the various functions and the expected data to be returned. (ooops my programming geek is showing) What they should be required to do is sell tools to anyone. The same scanners at the same prices with the same function and no “dealer rebate” shenanigans. If this is not implemented then there will be a monopoly or cartel situation in the near future. At $30k+ for a car I should get the shop maual and the parts list with all the diagrams!
I think all the telemetrics and bells and whistles are just more crap to go wrong. Murphy’s laws apply here. The shear number of systems and parts dictates a problem. Take the push to drive by wire; when you build 1000 units a year a 1 in a million failure rate is acceptable but when you build 10m units a year it gets real scary real fast. You start doing the math and you realalize that there are a lot of recalls that never get reported. You have to consider the failure rate of each component, then, the system, then the entire unit. You start getting into math without numbers and using those strange symbols to get the answers. It’s simply statistics and Samuel Clemens said it best: “there are tree kinds of lies, lies ,damned lies, and statistics.”
Cars have become kinetic easy chairs that make it to easy to operate and not drive. I can’t send a text message but I can screw around with joy sticks and touch screens? The old push button radios required no eyes, you reach and use touch to figure which button to push. Your eyes never leave the road.
I remember how the manufacturers carped and said they’d go broke ‘having’ to put seat belts in every car. I saw somewhere the car makers claimed that the 3rd brake light cost them $600/car to implement. Then They brag about their concern for your safety and installing passenger, then side, airbags when the feds mandated it. The only the tech advances is the bottom line and federal CAFE/safety mandates.
They took the loans fast enough. They not being required to ‘give’ tools away or trade secrets, just break the monopoly.
Hey Eric The Car Guy, just joined. Cool site by the way! Your video got me thinking about an experience I had with a friends 1999 Opel Astra. It had no speedometer and ABS Traction control indicator lights on. I used a generic scanner and it gave me two fault codes. No speed signal or torque control signal to PCM. Both come from ABS module so after double checking the exposed wiring loom and front left Wheel speed sensor for obvious damage, I suspected the ABS module. I went to google.
A whole lot of people were having the same problem. Apparently these modules have gold and aluminium wires about the width of a human hair that are ultra sonicially bonded to a ceramic circuit board. I condemmed the module by scoping the output pins for both signals and (foolishly) couldn’t resist opening it for a peek if there was anything I could see wrong. Nope. The local dealer wanted $4,000 for a new ABS module. They ended up referring me to a small independant shop who specialised in ECU repair. He wasn’t impressed that I had opened it, but he repaired it successfully for a whopping $200.
I guess my point is that as much as the dealerships try and modularise their electronics to attempt to make them exclusive/disposable they unwittingly create a market for people with the know how to repair their failed modules. I love cars, and I know electronics, but I don’t mind admitting that this dude had stuff miles over my head. His shop was like an electronics labratory.
Like you stated in the vid, OBD2 only has to concern emissions related modules. So the dealerships may try and lock independants out of the ABS, SRS, SatNav, Bluetooth or whatever, but in my opinion I don’t think they will succeed because there are too many smart people out there who can crack their programming language and hook up to the diagnostics of each module. Leaving the independants to plug in and enjoy! 🙂
[quote=”Dennymambo” post=64206]Hey Eric The Car Guy, just joined. Cool site by the way! Your video got me thinking about an experience I had with a friends 1999 Opel Astra. It had no speedometer and ABS Traction control indicator lights on. I used a generic scanner and it gave me two fault codes. No speed signal or torque control signal to PCM. Both come from ABS module so after double checking the exposed wiring loom and front left Wheel speed sensor for obvious damage, I suspected the ABS module. I went to google.
A whole lot of people were having the same problem. Apparently these modules have gold and aluminium wires about the width of a human hair that are ultra sonicially bonded to a ceramic circuit board. I condemmed the module by scoping the output pins for both signals and (foolishly) couldn’t resist opening it for a peek if there was anything I could see wrong. Nope. The local dealer wanted $4,000 for a new ABS module. They ended up referring me to a small independant shop who specialised in ECU repair. He wasn’t impressed that I had opened it, but he repaired it successfully for a whopping $200.
I guess my point is that as much as the dealerships try and modularise their electronics to attempt to make them exclusive/disposable they unwittingly create a market for people with the know how to repair their failed modules. I love cars, and I know electronics, but I don’t mind admitting that this dude had stuff miles over my head. His shop was like an electronics labratory.
Like you stated in the vid, OBD2 only has to concern emissions related modules. So the dealerships may try and lock independants out of the ABS, SRS, SatNav, Bluetooth or whatever, but in my opinion I don’t think they will succeed because there are too many smart people out there who can crack their programming language and hook up to the diagnostics of each module. Leaving the independants to plug in and enjoy! :)[/quote]
Excellent point! I have to agree with you. They can try and lock us out as much as they like but smart people will always find a way. That said, I think they’ll still see results from their efforts. But as long as I’m making videos I’ll try and point out the work arounds.
Thanks for your input.
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