Tapping noise ONLY at idle 2000 3.8 ford Windstar

[Oscar Lopez]

Hi guys, new member here!

Am an amateur DIY and normally good at diagnosing problem but this thing can’t seem to give me a break LOL. I look forward to help other people as well.

We have been using 15w40 oil for years on this minivan and never had a problem. I know it’s too thick for these engines but we don’t get such low temperature as people up north.

So you’ll see, I decided it was time to change the oil, it was a bit over due, and decided to switch to 5w30 to see if there was any difference and to make the things the right way from now and on; well, there is actually a BIG difference, the engine isn’t as loud as before, and the new fluid and filter (both motorcraft) made a tapping sound I had on cold starts go away, after many years with it!.

It idles great, runs quieter and has a 30% better fuel economy. What else coud somebody ask? This is where the ugly part comes. I don’t know if I hadn’t noticed before because the engine was noisier or what, but now I can hear a tapping noise at HOT idle, it seems to go away if I rev the engine. It’s running OK, hasn’t taken any oil and there is no smoke coming out from the tailpipe; as I said the noise is only present after after a few miles of reaching normal temperature.

I don’t have much experience with these things, I don’t know if it could be a lifter, a valve, rings, timing chain or what else!. I only get some occasional misfires and the LTFT for bank 1 goes up to 18+ from time to time.

I’ve made a few videos of it under different situations; it seems more noticeable at the passenger side, where the timing cover is.

VIDEO 1
VIDEO 2
VIDEO 3
VIDEO 4
VIDEO 5

They all are links to youtube.

I’ve replaced the tensioner pulley as it was making some grinding noise and was told that the tensioner could be making the noise but I don’t see it move at all while at idle. Other guy told me it could be a bad timing chain or tensioner. I tried listening to it with a mechanics stethoscope and it is more noticeable at the timing cover and also probing on the oil filter. On these engines the camshaft drives the CMP synchro which at the same time drives the oil pump.

I also know that the camshaft synchronizer is a common failure item on these engines, but the videos I’ve seen have a totally different constant noise so I don’t think that’s my problem.

Thanks in advance for any input, I would like to avoid having to remove the front cover as it is a nightmare on these engines…

Oscar.

Topic

[Mathieu]

It’s a spring valve timing and one valve spring that is lose It’s spring reactivity. Over time and factory mistake metal loose It’s physical property over time due to the metal fatigue (strest). You seem to have 2 bad valve spring.

See this topic. This guy have the same problem but whit a louder noise.
https://www.ericthecarguy.com/kunena/8-Service-and-Repair-Questions-Answered-Here/43625-2006-acura-tl-engine-knocking

[Oscar Lopez]

Hi! Thank you very much for your reply.

For some reason I have problems viewing embedded videos from youtube in this forum. Everything I get is a white box, I don’t know what’s wrong. I can’t see any of the videos mentioned in the post you posted. I wonder if you could please post the direct links to such videos.

Do you think it could be a bad valve spring? That would be great news. How could I find out which one is the bad one, only with the stethoscope or by removing the valve cover?.

I tried probing on the valve covers with the stethoscope but noticed no change. That’s why I didn’t think of it before but since I have not much experience with this kind of problems, I could definitely be wrong.

I friend took a look at the video and said he can hear a rattling noise even at cold idle.

In my first post I FORGOT TO SAY that the engine has around 88k miles and has been OVERHEATED TWICE. Both times the heads were resurfaced and engine was rebuilt but I can’t seem to remember replacing the valve springs so you might be right about all the stress and heat treatment that these parts have.

I appreciate your help.

Oscar.

[Mathieu]

Valve spring dianostic link
http://dn.xilibaba.com/Services/Troubleshooting20121106236.html

You need to ajuste your valve after you replace the valve spring. This is the video.
video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnyqVg3nWRk[/video]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MvH3usFkAA[/video]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mpNRJ7m-c8[/video]

How to fit compress air tube in the engine video. Same thing as a leak test
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgrfT0LFMhc[/video]

[Oscar Lopez]

Thanks again, I still can’t directly see them but managed to get the links from the source code.

I checked the videos and it actually seems to be the same noise. I can’t tell you how happy I feel about it. Dealing with upper engine components is way easier than removing a front timing cover, I really hope that’s only the problem.

Will I be able to find out with a compression tester? I have one of those.

My other question is why would the noise be present only at warm idle and go away with higher RPM’s? Was it just a coincidence or the switching on oil weight had anything to do with it?.

Oscar.

[Mathieu]

At idle the engine make less noise and the valve more noise then at no too hight RPM.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuWiZ5nVKzA[/video]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP9GJuHO7N8[/video]

[dave]

For some reason I have problems viewing embedded videos from youtube in this forum.

Same here when using Chrome.. I actually have to load some of these pages in Firefox in order to view youtube embedded videos.

[Mathieu]

I’m using Firefox.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjmplL0Sfac[/video]

[Oscar Lopez]

[quote=”Wrench Turner” post=51220]

For some reason I have problems viewing embedded videos from youtube in this forum.

Same here when using Chrome.. I actually have to load some of these pages in Firefox in order to view youtube embedded videos.[/quote]

Thank you, I used “Safari” and all videos showed up fine. I was using Chrome, I find it weird that videos are blocked in it…

[quote=”Plasmide56″ post=51216]At idle the engine make less noise and the valve more noise then at no too hight RPM.
[/quote]

Thank you Plasmide56, I finally was able to see all of the videos in the link that you posted and the noise surely seems to be the same but, in such videos, the noise does not seems to go away when RPM’s go up; mine does and I wonder if that would make any difference.

I will remove the valve covers and take a look at it. After watching all those videos I still don’t know what should I’ve looking for in order to find out which are the ones in bad condition or if I should be replacing them all, or even if they are the source of the problem.

You mentioned that there seem to be 2 bad valve springs, I would be interested in knowing how did you get to that conclusion.

***********

I’m sorry if I’m asking too many questions, this is the first time that something like this happens to me and I’m trying to gather as much information as I can before starting to work on it.

Thank you very much for all your input.

Oscar.

[Mathieu]

It’s just about the noise the valve knocking do. Louder the valve knocking and longer they do you can know If It’s an adjustment or and replacement. If the noise go away, It’s seem is just a valve spring adjustment (easy). Don’t change a valve spring is you did not eared them when you start after a red light. Because that is only a valve adjustment.

[Mathieu]

This is a fail valve spring that is need to be replace (harder to do)

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XsdOG8nRIg&noredirect=1[/video]

[Oscar Lopez]

Thanks again!

These engines have hydraulic lifters, would a valve adjustment still apply to it? I’m sorry if it’s a dumb question, I’m learning on the subject.

I would like to say that I’m sorry as I just noticed that the “videos” I supposedly posted in my first post will take you to the same video, I hadn’t noticed it. I blame chrome on this lol, I could have noticed sooner if I had seen the video thumbnails.

THESE are the correct links to all the videos:

VIDEO 1
Noise at hot idle

VIDEO 2
Noise seems to be gone after shutting engine off for a couple of minutes

VIDEO 3
Cold start engine

VIDEO 4
Warm engine

VIDEO 5
Serpentine belt removed

Oscar.

[Mathieu]

What It’s hydraulic lifter

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lorANZ1Tptw[/video]

Hydraulic lifter can be adjust. You need to adjust you spring as I can eared on the video. The metal (spring) will expend when It’s hot.

You can buy your car factory repair manual for your car.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVkg4AoXjz4[/video]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN95GLDvGBc[/video]

[ridinred24]

I have never seen an adjustment for hydraulic lifters, thats the reason to have them in the first place. Before you dig too deep, change the oil to the heavier viscosity and see if the noise goes away. Or substitube 1 quart of ATF when you change the oil to help quiet down the lifters.

Why work harder than you have to????

[Oscar Lopez]

Thank you guys,

Hydraulic lifters cannot be adjusted, but you can adjust some slack if you have adjustable rocker arms.

I would use other oil, but that will only mask the problem rather than fixing it. The main concern is that I’m still not sure if it’s a valvetrain problem OR something to do with the timing chain and/or tensioner. If it’s the second, nothing will fix/mask it and could lead to potential engine damage.

I will take a look at it within the next days. So far two people have agreed with it being a valvetrain problem; one more has said it’s a problem with the timing tensioner instead.

Oscar.

[ridinred24]

I think narrowing it down via a heavier oil would be a great place to start, then you will know whether its valve train or timing chain. Good luck!

[Author]

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