***SOLVED!*** Double Flaring – FAIL!!! Now What?

[Gene]

OK, so in replacing the rear brakes on my 89 Accord LXi, I broke the E-Pipe which attaches into the back of the wheel cylinder. No luck finding the part in the USA, so decided to be adventuresome and “do it myself!” I remember bending conduit many moons ago, so thought this might work out.

Found pre-flared (double flare) lines in set lengths at my neighborhood big box store. They loaned me a bender of sorts and I was able to approximate the broken piece. But drats! Put it in place and with a bunch of re-bending and choice words just seemed to be short and could not get it to fit! No problem that was the first one of 3 pipes I bought, so the ‘practice’ one didn’t fit…. Second pipe: I skipped the middle bend and just went for the bends near the ends. That could work, but was darn close to the strut. Anyway, got it to fit and tightened down. So far so good. Then I get a buddy to help me bleed the brakes and #@%^*& the fitting on the back of the wheel cylinder is leaking. It is as tight as I can go with the line wrench without rounding off the edges.

So I head back to the big box store and they don’t have anything an inch longer, just 4-inches longer. Then the guy tells me I can just cut it to length and put a double flare end on that myself! It’s easy, he says! So he sells me another pipe and loans me a flaring tool.

So I cut off the 3-inches I didn’t need and used that piece as a test or trial before attempting on the real piece. Now I am stumped! I watched at least 3 videos on how to make double flares and followed those instructions. Dudes were using a tool that looked similar to the one I borrowed.

So here are the results of my “double flaring!” Looks to me like a single flare AND an pretty cr@ppy one at that! Angled flare (not square), possible cracking of the metal and the outside all chewed up. Can imagine a shop teacher would trash these and flunk me outright!

Yes, I used a bit of lube on the button and on the cone as video suggested. Wish I had the $200 bucks for the Eastwood tool….

So what now? HELP!???? 🙂

Attachments:

• FlaredTubing-FAIL!001.jpg
• FlaredTubing-FAIL!002.jpg
• FlaredTubing-FAIL!003.jpg
• FlaredTubing-FAIL!004.jpg

Topic

[Rob]

so what is your problem / whats your question???
if its still leaking sometime there is a copper washer that it has on them they should always be replaced… but dont know if you have one on that fighting….

[Gene]

Hey, thanks for the reply. I am stumped as to what to do. I need that last section of brake line.

Questions:
[ul]

[Timothy Ropp]

http://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-on-car-flaring-tool-for-3-16-tubing.html

that is a link to a smaller cheaper version of the 200 doller flare tool that works a ton better then that other tool u have as long as the line is 3/16 u will be good

u can use a compression fitting if u want but it is technically not the right repair to do and u could end up paying for it down the road if it were to fail

they also make double fare connections which u can use instead of the compression fitting but u would need to be able to make nice flares

[Brian]

First of all, please do not ever use a compression fitting on a brake line. They are technically illegal in most areas, but they are known to fail under hard sudden panic stops. You will know it was wrong when you arrive at the scene of the accident.

This is the easiest to follow video I’ve seen so far. It’s the kind of thing that can really frustrate you until you get the hang of it.
What I’m saying is that you need to practice. I’ve never seen anyone get it right on the first attempt. Even seasoned techs sometimes mess up and have to start over.
Make sure the flare nuts are the correct thread pitch too, some are similar but different, that can trick you. See if the flare nut threads in relatively easy without the brake line, all by itself. If not, you know your senses have been tricked.
If your in eastern Iowa, I can give you a hand.

I got sick of starting over and going through multiple premade lines also in the past, so I got a 20 foot reel of 3/16 brake line. I took my time practicing until I got the hang of it. Keep in mind that 3/16 line is the most common size used. If you were to buy a spool, or longer section of it, you will find use for the rest of it in time.

I don’t want to poopoo on the last poster’s ideas, but compression fittings in automobile brake lines isn’t about being technically correct, it’s about saving a life. Please don’t ever use that in a brake line.

[Brian]

I also want to mention, steel brake tubing is flexible, but it’s like a coat hanger. If you bend it too many times, it will crack and brake.

A trick I use to make nice bends, is to get a steel can, like a soup can, or similar. You can use the can a a form to push the brake tubing around to get smoother bends. It’s mild steel, not hardened, so it’s easier to bend than you might think. Otherwise, I just got the hang of bending it by hand with no tools that can themselves get in the way.

[James P Grosso]

The Eastwood brake line flare kit is the same as the K-Tool International tool. I bought mine from Summit Racing, and then bought the additional 37-degree dies from Eastwood later on.
http://www.ktoolinternational.com/kti/Tools/Product-Categories/Vehicle-Specialty-Tools/Vehicle-Specialty/KTI70081/p/KTI70081

Have you checked to see if there is a factory bent replacement line? Might be cheaper than the tools?

[Gene]

[quote=”peshewa” post=173285]First of all, please do not ever use a compression fitting on a brake line. They are technically illegal in most areas, but they are known to fail under hard sudden panic stops. You will know it was wrong when you arrive at the scene of the accident. [/quote]

I hear ya! Don’t wanna be like the old joke about the last thing that goes through your mind before the steering wheel….should not have used compression fittings…..

[quote=”peshewa” post=173285] This is the easiest to follow video I’ve seen so far. It’s the kind of thing that can really frustrate you until you get the hang of it. [/quote]

Thanks for the video. Looks pretty much like the ones I watched. The only difference was a very noticeable and strong champher (beveled edge) he put on the outside of the tubing before doing the double flare techniques. Could that alone be the source of the problem?

[quote=”peshewa” post=173285] What I’m saying is that you need to practice. I’ve never seen anyone get it right on the first attempt. Even seasoned techs sometimes mess up and have to start over. If your in eastern Iowa, I can give you a hand.

I got sick of starting over and going through multiple premade lines also in the past, so I got a 20 foot reel of 3/16 brake line. I took my time practicing until I got the hang of it. Keep in mind that 3/16 line is the most common size used. If you were to buy a spool, or longer section of it, you will find use for the rest of it in time. [/quote]

Hey thanks for the offer to give me a hand. Unfortunately I am on the East Coast, closer to collegeman than even Eric. I wasn’t sure how tough this would be so I did use the extra I cut off to practice. But after the 4 failed attempts, I figured something was terribly wrong. I note that there is some comment to avoid messing up the coating on the outside of the line, well as you can see it looks like the tool chewed all of that up and ground it off. So Again another sign that something is wrong in Dodge City! 😛

[quote=”peshewa” post=173285] Make sure the flare nuts are the correct thread pitch too, some are similar but different, that can trick you. See if the flare nut threads in relatively easy without the brake line, all by itself. If not, you know your senses have been tricked. [/quote]

That is a good thought and one I was concerned with. Spent a lot of time in the parts store studying the nuts and threads. Then when it was “so close,” I tried connecting one end and seeing if it ran down all of the way by hand. When that confirmed I was actually threading the connector and NOT cross threading it, I took it off and did the same thing on the other end. Both ends threaded in fine independently. That way I know they are the correct nuts and what things should feel like when I was doing final assembly. But even when I got it all assembled and tightened down, I still had a leak at the wheel cylinder.

[b][color=#ff0088]How about using an o-ring on the nut side of the double flare? Could that provide the extra sealing I need?

What about pipe dope on the threads? Teflon tape?[/color][/b]

[quote=”peshewa” post=173285] I don’t want to poopoo on the last poster’s ideas, but compression fittings in automobile brake lines isn’t about being technically correct, it’s about saving a life. Please don’t ever use that in a brake line.[/quote]

Hey, I hear ya! Thanks for the warning. No point in being penny wise and pound foolish!

Now if I could figure out if it was the tool? or something stupid I did?

[Gene]

[quote=”peshewa” post=173286]I also want to mention, steel brake tubing is flexible, but it’s like a coat hanger. If you bend it too many times, it will crack and brake.

A trick I use to make nice bends, is to get a steel can, like a soup can, or similar. You can use the can a a form to push the brake tubing around to get smoother bends. It’s mild steel, not hardened, so it’s easier to bend than you might think. Otherwise, I just got the hang of bending it by hand with no tools that can themselves get in the way.[/quote]

LOL! Thanks!

I did rent a bender from one of the stores, pretty cheap thing but it got me started. It seemed to work fairly well for what I needed. However, think I’d prefer that tool that looks like a pair of pliers, the tool Eric used in his videos. While the tubing was on the car and I needed just another “little bit” those “pliers” would help.

Problem I constantly run into is that things that the technicians do every day, and think nothing of, are often difficult for a shade tree, week end warrior. I think techs develop a certain dexterity and strength that I don’t have and often that is the key between success and a few choice words. That and just not having the “muscle memory” of the force required. I know I ran into that when I was trying to take apart the lovely Ford “quick connect” fittings on the AC lines. Everyone was telling to eat my Wheaties and I figure it was good natured ribbing – er, until I finally got one to partially give way – THEN I understood the amount of effort/force required to disengage TWO o-rings! So yeah, not going to be bending much tubing by hand here.

But the idea of using another object like a can as something to bend stuff around is a great idea! Good work around!

[Gene]

[quote=”451Mopar” post=173342]Have you checked to see if there is a factory bent replacement line? Might be cheaper than the tools?[/quote]

Thank you for the info on the tool and its availability at Summit Racing! Appreciate it!

Thanks also for the thought on OEM parts. Hmm, well I thought I tried to find a factory replacement pipe. It has always been a challenge to find some parts for this 27 yo. car. Perhaps my ignorance (lack of knowledge) got in the way and I missed a good place to look? Wouldn’t be the first time I needed to learn something or missed the obvious! 😆

1989 Honda Accord 4 Door LXI KA 5MT
Part No. 46361-SE0-030
Part Description: Pipe E, L. Brake

Here is where I looked:

• Honda Parts Now – Found part number and “out of stock” indication. Now I have been told that Honda links all dealer inventories together so that all can see what is out there in the world. So, as I was told, if one site doesn’t have it, no sites have it. Also asked and was told that Honda prevents dealers from selling old inventory to a consolidator like Rock Auto or like <font color="#00bb00]Green Sales[/color] in Cincy does for Ford Parts. So either youse gets u parts from the Honda network, or go the aftermarket route. [color=#ff0088″>Hope this is correct?
• Rock Auto – quick look to see if they had any brake lines. I didn’t see any. Looks like they have the rubber hydraulic hoses however.
• eBay – used OEM part number and separately description as search criteria.
• Google Search – got plenty of hits, most of which were for a similar part number (-010 not -030). I ended up calling a parts manager in Texas about the part with the one number difference and he said that the part came up as being a fit for a 1986 Accord. So I ask, “Why wouldn’t that fit? Since Generation 3 Accords were 1986 to 1989?” He said it was possible and probable that they made an upgrade for the 1987, and subsequent year models and it would not be wise to assume his part was a fit/match. Also got a number of hits on page 7 and later of the Google search results that were the correct part number, but were located in Russia or the European Union.
• Vintage Parts (vpartsinc.com) – No joy, part number search there yielded no hits.

So

<font color="#ff0088]Is there somewhere else, or some other way to look for an OEM part?[/color] Can I get a junk yard to pull one measly 8-in brake line for me? [color=#ff0088″> What have I missed?

[James P Grosso]

Looks like a tough one to find? I looked at some restoration places like Classic Tube,and inline tube, and they don’t list any Honda lines. Tried Fine Lines( SSTubes.com) and they list Honda, but only back to 1994?, You might want to give them a call and see as I think they do custom stuff too. Toll Free: 800-778-8237

[Ole Eggers]

[quote=”CanDo807″ post=173490][quote=”peshewa” post=173285]First of all, please do not ever use a compression fitting on a brake line. They are technically illegal in most areas, but they are known to fail under hard sudden panic stops. You will know it was wrong when you arrive at the scene of the accident. [/quote]

I hear ya! Don’t wanna be like the old joke about the last thing that goes through your mind before the steering wheel….should not have used compression fittings…..

[quote=”peshewa” post=173285] This is the easiest to follow video I’ve seen so far. It’s the kind of thing that can really frustrate you until you get the hang of it. [/quote]

Thanks for the video. Looks pretty much like the ones I watched. The only difference was a very noticeable and strong champher (beveled edge) he put on the outside of the tubing before doing the double flare techniques. Could that alone be the source of the problem?

[quote=”peshewa” post=173285] What I’m saying is that you need to practice. I’ve never seen anyone get it right on the first attempt. Even seasoned techs sometimes mess up and have to start over. If your in eastern Iowa, I can give you a hand.

I got sick of starting over and going through multiple premade lines also in the past, so I got a 20 foot reel of 3/16 brake line. I took my time practicing until I got the hang of it. Keep in mind that 3/16 line is the most common size used. If you were to buy a spool, or longer section of it, you will find use for the rest of it in time. [/quote]

Hey thanks for the offer to give me a hand. Unfortunately I am on the East Coast, closer to collegeman than even Eric. I wasn’t sure how tough this would be so I did use the extra I cut off to practice. But after the 4 failed attempts, I figured something was terribly wrong. I note that there is some comment to avoid messing up the coating on the outside of the line, well as you can see it looks like the tool chewed all of that up and ground it off. So Again another sign that something is wrong in Dodge City! 😛

[quote=”peshewa” post=173285] Make sure the flare nuts are the correct thread pitch too, some are similar but different, that can trick you. See if the flare nut threads in relatively easy without the brake line, all by itself. If not, you know your senses have been tricked. [/quote]

That is a good thought and one I was concerned with. Spent a lot of time in the parts store studying the nuts and threads. Then when it was “so close,” I tried connecting one end and seeing if it ran down all of the way by hand. When that confirmed I was actually threading the connector and NOT cross threading it, I took it off and did the same thing on the other end. Both ends threaded in fine independently. That way I know they are the correct nuts and what things should feel like when I was doing final assembly. But even when I got it all assembled and tightened down, I still had a leak at the wheel cylinder.

[b][color=#ff0088]How about using an o-ring on the nut side of the double flare? Could that provide the extra sealing I need?

What about pipe dope on the threads? Teflon tape?[/color][/b]

[quote=”peshewa” post=173285] I don’t want to poopoo on the last poster’s ideas, but compression fittings in automobile brake lines isn’t about being technically correct, it’s about saving a life. Please don’t ever use that in a brake line.[/quote]

Hey, I hear ya! Thanks for the warning. No point in being penny wise and pound foolish!

Now if I could figure out if it was the tool? or something stupid I did?[/quote]

U do NOT use anything to seal any brake parts. No o-rings or teflon tape on any brake pipe. None of it will hold the 100-300 Bar pressure that you put on a brake system in a panic situation.

Just make sure you use the right nuts. Here is a website that shows some different ones: https://www.thansen.dk/bil/autoreservedele/universaldele/bremsedele/omlober-nippel/n-354112285/

Notice, that some has thread all the way out and others has a small collar. Look at the old nuts and make sure, that the new ones are the same kind.

[Mike]

Your fitting leaks might be a case of not using the correct fittings. If I remember correctly, the flare angle on single and double flares is different. Going from ancient memory, single flare fittings use a 37° flare angle, while double flare fittings use a 45° flare angle.

Mind you, that info comes from aviation practice. I don’t know if it applies to automotive engineering.

[Ole Eggers]

Come to think of it, why is everybody always talking about steel tubing, when copper tubing is easier to work with and actually more durable? I Know, it costs more but…..

[Mike]

The problem is that a standard flaring tool is not capable of making that flare.
It looks like it isn’t a double flare but actually is a DIN/ISO flare.
Look at the pictures here http://www.fedhillusa.com/webnuts/common%20flares6.pdf
The differences include the fact that a double flare is angled against the line fitting, whereas the DIN/ISO is flat against the fitting

It appears that this Honda dealer has the line, but I’d call and check before assuming it’s in stock
http://www.hondapartshub.com/oe-honda/46361se0010

[Gene]

[quote=”451Mopar” post=173497]Looks like a tough one to find? I looked at some restoration places like Classic Tube,and inline tube, and they don’t list any Honda lines. Tried Fine Lines( SSTubes.com) and they list Honda, but only back to 1994?, You might want to give them a call and see as I think they do custom stuff too. Toll Free: 800-778-8237[/quote]

Hey Thanks! I have made a note of those for future reference. I am sure I’ll get into this again so it is great to have some places to check. This is what I love about Eric’s site – always someone around who knows something different than I do! So the real power of a “collective knowledge base!”

Classic Tube offered to build me a custom line, er, at vast expense.. Not sure I want to go that direction, but if all else fails – I have the solution! Thanks!

[Author]

Replies