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Question: I’ve noticed my wife’s 2003 Taurus seems to have a soft brake pedal.
Normally I’d think this would be air in the brake system… but AFAIK nothing has been recently done to the brakes. I also am not aware of any line leaks (last I checked it wasn’t loosing fluid).
Due to the lack of an air source, would this mean a failing master cylinder? The only other thing I can think of is an ABS valve issue, but IIRC that issue is limited to Kelsey-Hays RWAL systems (this has 4 wheel ABS).
Suggestions?
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Your brake fluid is contaminated with atmospheric moisture. Good brake fluid looks clear like water, or very nearly so. If it looks like coffee or syrup, that is actually liquid rust. Look up the word hygroscopic.
Brake fluid is hygroscopic.
You press the brake pedal, but it goes down way too far.
Good brake fluid is a dense hydraulic fluid that cannot be compressed.
Water can be compressed. Easily so in a sealed hydraulic circuit.
Go buy a fresh quart of dot 3 brake fluid. Look up a video on how to flush a brake system.
There is a sequence to follow, but its not so hard. Have a friend along to press the brake pedal a lot. Also get an empty pop bottle and some cheap clear tubing from the hardware store, about 2.5 feet will do. Start in the right rear wheel. Shoot some penetrating lube on the rear bleed screws before you start. They can get rust fused easily and sometimes snap off when loosening them.
Eric did a video very recently on that van that goes thru it all. He did not intend to flush the brakes, but he ended up doing it anyway.If your very new to this, the possible complications you can run into are needing to replace the rear wheel brake cylinders. The hard lines leading to those cylinders can get rust and snap on you too. The fluid it about $10, wheel cylinders are $12ish, the short hard lines that split off the T junction leading to each wheel cylinder are even less. Most shops charge about $50-$80 for this job if you want to have it done as long as they don’t have to replace extra parts.
This kind of job comes with a high sense of satisfaction if it’s done right. If the fluid is really bad, then doing this will make the car stop many times easier. It’s like when you get a new car and have to get used to how hard you have to press the brake pedal all over again.
Again, watch the recent video Eric did on the vans brakes, less than two weeks ago.I will add that you should look at the clear tubing that is pressed over the slightly open bleeder screw. Look at the color if it as it comes out. The fluid will run dry, and a little bit of air will get in, but then you just fill the resivior with fresh fluid then have a friend pump it thru till fresh fluid starts coming thru the clear tubing, then do what’s called a three count which will bleed the air out of the line. After you empty the fluid from the right rear line, then do that left rear, but don’t let the resivior run dry this time. Then repeat that on the right front, then left front.
You will love how well it stops after this.^gotcha. I already have an ETCG style bleed tool (only using a coke bottle, not Mtn Dew). I didn’t know old fluid could/would do that. Time to get fluid and as eric called it in the brake fluid change video, a “high perfomance” turkey baster.
Odds are there’s a small leak somewhere, likely the rear wheel cylinders (if equipped) or the caliper pistons. Depending on the type of soft you are actually referring to, drums out of adjustment can dramatically change the way the pedal feels. either way you should completely inspect and while your in there service, the vehicles brake system.
If you don’t find any faults or other issues you can always bleed the brakes and see if that changes anything. Go out for a drive and find some gravel and enter the vehicle into a few full ABS events, where the pump kicks in, the whole nine yards. Then go back and bleed them again. After that if there is no fault you should notice and improvement in the feel. If not, then you have a small leak somewhere.
I got it on 4 jack stands… and pulled the right rear drum, no leaks (but 12 years of brake dust from the looks of it). The left rear drum, however is stuck; it seems like a the shoes have worn a deep groove in the drum and are stuck on the ridge. I tried using my various brake spoons to back the pads off w/o luck (the adjusters are not star wheels but bump wheels, grr). I also found the parking brake cable was being hit by the jackstand, so I jacked it off the rear stands and tried agian, no change.The drum rotates like it’s supposed to… but it feels like it’s held on the studs with a spring, which must be the pads pulling agains it’s holddown springs.
Suggestions for pulling this stubborn drum? I plan to regrease the tapered roller bearings while I’m at it, and clearly that can’t happen with the drum stuck on.
PS- I also discovered 5 tons of bad rocker rot, so anything that costs a lot will probably total it. Stupid rusted out POS.
See if this helps getting your drum off. Beware you will need new hardware if you need to do the full procedure of cutting the hold down pins.
[quote=”dtidman” post=144948]See if this helps getting your drum off. Beware you will need new hardware if you need to do the full procedure of cutting the hold down pins.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6jpNC6emOQ%5B/quote%5D
This. And basically you’re in for a whole bunch of prying and pulling, in the end you basically have to forcibly remove the drum against all the hardware that’s design to not come apart the way you are. Had to deal with it a couple of months ago, on a similarish Taurus no less.
Bad news:
I broke it worse trying. Drilling the pins didn’t work, so I ended up prying them with a screw driver and snipping them with side cutters. No dice.
Went to remove the wheel cylinder bolts, that didn’t loosen it any more.
I then remove every hold down I can; I cut the parking brake cable and removed the brake line from wheel cylinder (which broke the line, damn rusty POS). Still nothing. Looked at the other side, there is a riveted plate that holds the bottom of the shoes. Shit. The shoes just won’t let go.
At this point I’m looking at going to a JY and getting a spindle assembly with the drum and all, and getting new shoes, hardware, parking brake cable, and brake line to replace what’s busted. Kinda a “helicopter to cross the street” approach, but like that 4runner wheel hub, sometimes things are just too married to be economically divorceable.
Did I mention it’s a rusty POS? Damn thing.
If the drum is stuck on the pads then hit it hard with a heavy hammer, I know it sounds a bit gruesome but that’s how i get a stuck drum off. You will need to hit it hard at 3 ,6, 9 & 12 O’Clock.
if that doesn’t work use a bearing pully.
tried with the hammer for an afternoon… nothing.
I don’t have a big enough puller for this beast unfortuneatly I’m thinking the JY approach is cheaper if I go to pull-a-part.
[quote=”Well” post=144974]heat up the drum with a oxy acetylene the try.[/quote]
I don’t have a gas axe. I have a tiny butane torch, which I doubt is powerful enough.
The local pull-a-part has it for $42 plus core… although since I’ll have to get the parking brake cable with the unit, that may add $6. Not sure how much a HUGE puller costs though.
A puller would be a good purchase and then you’d have it if you ever needed it again.
On the other hand if you have a Air hammer you could put something blunt in the air hammer and use that to vibrate it loose.
Unless HF sells such a large puller, the economics don’t work out (Napa has one for $143, too much $$$). I do have smaller pullers, and while I did see a video of one making an adapter out of a 2×4 to make one work on drums, it looked a bit sketchy and prone to slipping.
I don’t have compressed air either, so no on the air hammer.
It’s a spring tension issue anyway; it’s not stuck to the hub. The shoes are pressed hard against the drum, and it feels like it’s more than friction getting in the way (unlike the other side which came off with some fiddling).
An optional technique to pull off a drum is to go behind it and look at the backing plate… There should be a rubber or plastic plug (round or oval shaped) that you can remove and stick in an adjusting tool (or a flat tip screwdriver if need be) and rotate the star adjuster (to loosen the shoes grip on the drum)…. You may need to spray some lubricating oil down in there on the star adjuster if it is really stuck (I recommend PB Blaster)… There is a good possibility You can manually back off the shoes by doing this…
The last ditch technique is to drill out (or best use a proper die grinder) and grind down the backs of the pins which hold in the brake shoes… This will cause the shoes to loose their support and you will be able to pull the hub off…
Oh and by the way… Make sure the parking brake is off (yes, this sometimes happens to the best of us…)
All the best…
P.S. A carbon burr attachment like the one on the top left on a die grinder (or drill) is the best way to get those pin backs off..
-Karl
^Not sure if you didn’t read what I posted or if I mistyped, as I’ve long tried those:
-I tried the star wheel, which from looking at the other drum (which did come off) is more of a bump wheel and all attempts to back it off were failures (not enough to get any purchase on anything). I have a few different brake spoons, none of which were of use.
-I made sure the parking brake was not on or engaged; in fact I cut the cable.
-The hold down pins are toast… I tried drilling, which failed do to moron here not center punching them first (wandering bit) and my angle grinder was too big of a cut to hit the pins. I ended up prying them from the back with a screwdriver and cutting them with some diagonal cutters. The forward one was so bad I had to pry it, grab it with vice grips, pry again from below, and then get my cutters on it (as I couldn’t pry it from below directly. If I had used my tack puller (flat wedge blade with a notch in the middle) instead of a flat blade screwdriver (improper use of tools!), it probably would have been easier… and cutting the pins seemed to make it WORSE.
This bastard is truly stuck, hence why I’ve given up on removing the drum and am looking to pull a whole assembly tomorrow at the JY. all that’s hling it is some suspension bits (bolts and nuts, lol), parking brake cable (Toast!) and a brake line (twisted, split, and ultimatly cut). I’ll be sure the drum on what I pull is more prone to coming off before I remove it.
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