Quality

[EricTheCarGuy]

It’s a concept that we may struggle with sometimes. What are your thoughts?

Topic

[Lou]

When you talk about plastic parts I have to disagree on saying that they can have quality.

It is true they work, are lighter, and cheaper, but for how long?

I have seen original engines from the 30s that have only had valves, belts, and filters replaced. Everything else is metal and still functional. Do you expect that those plastic parts made today will still be functional in 2090?

[Len]

Well,
Quality is a car that brings you to your destination without failing you.
Quality is the same car that brings you there with not much effort in maintenance.

Quality in shops,….
I deliberately stopped taking my car to brand dedicated shops. I only take my car to a shop where they are fixing in general all the brands that come in and where no car sales take place. I found that sooner or later the advice at these brand dedicated shops were, let’s say, not so independent. I also pay attention
to the fact if there are expensive status symbols. Or rather, the absence of them.

The shop where I go now, I could freely walk in. No reception that wants to keep you out of the shop area and in a boring waiting area, with mechanics that aren’t afraid to show how they work. I was sold when I saw a mechanic put anti-seize paste on all the bolts and nuts he had removed and how tidy all the parts were arranged. How he cleaned his tools after using them.

In short, that is what I call Quality

[Dima]

Specifically on products, there are two types of quality. Actual build quality, and perceived quality. Build can be sturdiness, reliability, and materials. This is not very arguable, as good build quality shows in controlled tests. Perceived quality is how well its put together, good materials (especially in a car interior). This is where opinion kicks in, and you can argue day and night.

I’d gladly pay more for quality, which is why I buy most essential replacement parts from the Toyota dealership. Quality pays off in the end. And the cost of quality? Owning an old car and having to care for it! The 1996 Toyota 7A-FE engine is incredible quality, never giving out even under abuse, but having an old car in general is a responsibility.

In terms of labor, I personally don’t mind waiting and paying a little extra for good work. I haven’t found a shop so far that does amazing work, but I have found a shop that does decent work but is very honest and helpful. I give them work when I can’t do something myself, like alignments. Cheap work will always bite you in the ass eventually.

[EricTheCarGuy]

[quote=”Drakesdoom” post=76326]When you talk about plastic parts I have to disagree on saying that they can have quality.

It is true they work, are lighter, and cheaper, but for how long?

I have seen original engines from the 30s that have only had valves, belts, and filters replaced. Everything else is metal and still functional. Do you expect that those plastic parts made today will still be functional in 2090?[/quote]

Good point, but how many vehicles from the 1930’s do you see around today? I’m not saying they weren’t good cars but at some point they became outmoded like everything does. Nothing lasts forever. These days, things are made to last just long enough it seems. And for the most part, that might just be all that’s required.

Thanks for your input.

[EricTheCarGuy]

[quote=”Haloruler64″ post=76337]Specifically on products, there are two types of quality. Actual build quality, and perceived quality. Build can be sturdiness, reliability, and materials. This is not very arguable, as good build quality shows in controlled tests. Perceived quality is how well its put together, good materials (especially in a car interior). This is where opinion kicks in, and you can argue day and night.

I’d gladly pay more for quality, which is why I buy most essential replacement parts from the Toyota dealership. Quality pays off in the end. And the cost of quality? Owning an old car and having to care for it! The 1996 Toyota 7A-FE engine is incredible quality, never giving out even under abuse, but having an old car in general is a responsibility.

In terms of labor, I personally don’t mind waiting and paying a little extra for good work. I haven’t found a shop so far that does amazing work, but I have found a shop that does decent work but is very honest and helpful. I give them work when I can’t do something myself, like alignments. Cheap work will always bite you in the ass eventually.[/quote]

All great points. Thanks for your input.

[dan]

i hope i am not late too reply on this but i must reply.

when i was a mechanic in training our instructor drilled quality into our brains, quality quality quality, the customer will not always notice how good of a job you did, but they will always usually notice the mistakes you make… so it is best to do quality work. i always looked at my customers cars as my own, and when it comes too my car i want each and every single peace too be just right, whats lubricated must be lubricated just right, whats tightened must be tightened just right, what is put together must be put together with care and love and precision… and with my experiences this really adds up to me! i am no longer a mechanic, but every time i work on cars for people particularly for my grandfather, they are pleased with how well it turns out, sure it takes a little longer than a pro, but they are always pleased. when i did the break job on his truck and his car, he was very happy, he told me the breaks worked better than they ever had, and i truly think beacuse all the bolts and nuts where tightened just right, all the things that required proper lubrication recieved not only lubrication but carful attention… disassembly assembly… everything quality, and in the end my grandfather is very pleased with his brake job, and he is safe and i know he is beacuse i didn’t rush, i put forth quality, however in many shops they don’t want the time it takes too do a true quality job.

as far as automobiles i know its subjective, i know its how it is viewed buy the owner of the vehicle… what one owner may be procieve as quality may not be so important too another. for example i am more concerned about the car itself, i want a car that is well engineered, a quality car too me is like my old buick or my current Pontiac which i have heard some very good or bad things but regular maintenance with these vehicles i find results in a long life vehicle, thats quality too me, simple matenence and she just keeps on ticking! but someone ells may thing quality is all these buttons and knobs do things just right and just what i want and this car does this and that just like i like it, many are willing too look past the not so quality things too see the things they consider quality too…

also Eric… i understand what you are saying with plastic intakes its good for a weight and cost savings but it also depends on the design of the engine for me! i do not like them personally… for the 3800 Series II and some of the series I engines they proved nothing but trouble, i am sure you experienced this, when they get hot and cold and hot and cold they quite frequently crack… coolant leaks into the oil… and the coolant eats the main and rod bearings, and then the life of that otherwise nearly bulletproof 3800 is now shortened. i find it interesting how they went back too a aluminum upper and lower plenum with the series III before they finally discontinued the 3800 all together, i believed the true quality 3800 has a aluminum intake plenum, and the choice too use plastic upper and lower intake manifold gaskets was a bad choice beacuse coolant flows through them, and they crack a bad choice buy GM, and they leak, and thats a nightmare! i like aluminum intakes but that is just me… i like too tap my knuckles on the intake and here //tink tink tink and not //thunk thunk thunk, but once again it also depends on the design of the engine…

sorry if i sound like i am ranting or rambling 🙂

[Nick]

This is partly why i like to DIY.

Especially parts that are liable to get rusty, I can spent plenty of my own time with the wire brush cleaning off rust, and wait a few extra hours while I give them a coat of hammerite ( A paint that lasts a long time on rust, steel and iron ) especially on break carriers and drum breaks making the next time I do the job a breeze.

Also going DIY on many parts, especially the breaks means I get to choose the brake parts more readily, this I usually spend a bit more on something I know tends to last a bit longer and comes with extras like new bolts and sliders or with drum breaks new springs. In my case I found a really nice aftermarket kits from the same company that makes the OEM ones, a fair bit cheaper than having the OEM label on the box.

Also In the UK most garages seem way too quick to opt for new break calipers especially when it might take a little extra time to get them in a bench vice to help lubricating getting stuck and partially pistons moving freely again.

[dan]

yep… i mean you cant blame the mechanics beacuse a lot of the common customers want the job done fast, i could care less, i want a quality job not a done fast job…

[EricTheCarGuy]

[quote=”13aceofspades13″ post=76378]i hope i am not late too reply on this but i must reply.

when i was a mechanic in training our instructor drilled quality into our brains, quality quality quality, the customer will not always notice how good of a job you did, but they will always usually notice the mistakes you make… so it is best to do quality work. i always looked at my customers cars as my own, and when it comes too my car i want each and every single peace too be just right, whats lubricated must be lubricated just right, whats tightened must be tightened just right, what is put together must be put together with care and love and precision… and with my experiences this really adds up to me! i am no longer a mechanic, but every time i work on cars for people particularly for my grandfather, they are pleased with how well it turns out, sure it takes a little longer than a pro, but they are always pleased. when i did the break job on his truck and his car, he was very happy, he told me the breaks worked better than they ever had, and i truly think beacuse all the bolts and nuts where tightened just right, all the things that required proper lubrication recieved not only lubrication but carful attention… disassembly assembly… everything quality, and in the end my grandfather is very pleased with his brake job, and he is safe and i know he is beacuse i didn’t rush, i put forth quality, however in many shops they don’t want the time it takes too do a true quality job.

as far as automobiles i know its subjective, i know its how it is viewed buy the owner of the vehicle… what one owner may be procieve as quality may not be so important too another. for example i am more concerned about the car itself, i want a car that is well engineered, a quality car too me is like my old buick or my current Pontiac which i have heard some very good or bad things but regular maintenance with these vehicles i find results in a long life vehicle, thats quality too me, simple matenence and she just keeps on ticking! but someone ells may thing quality is all these buttons and knobs do things just right and just what i want and this car does this and that just like i like it, many are willing too look past the not so quality things too see the things they consider quality too…

also Eric… i understand what you are saying with plastic intakes its good for a weight and cost savings but it also depends on the design of the engine for me! i do not like them personally… for the 3800 Series II and some of the series I engines they proved nothing but trouble, i am sure you experienced this, when they get hot and cold and hot and cold they quite frequently crack… coolant leaks into the oil… and the coolant eats the main and rod bearings, and then the life of that otherwise nearly bulletproof 3800 is now shortened. i find it interesting how they went back too a aluminum upper and lower plenum with the series III before they finally discontinued the 3800 all together, i believed the true quality 3800 has a aluminum intake plenum, and the choice too use plastic upper and lower intake manifold gaskets was a bad choice beacuse coolant flows through them, and they crack a bad choice buy GM, and they leak, and thats a nightmare! i like aluminum intakes but that is just me… i like too tap my knuckles on the intake and here //tink tink tink and not //thunk thunk thunk, but once again it also depends on the design of the engine…

sorry if i sound like i am ranting or rambling :)[/quote]

I agree that plastic intakes don’t always work out. I think if it’s quality plastic that’s properly engineered, it can work. Meeting the aforementioned criteria is also easier said than done. I was just using that as an example of intelligent design, or an attempt at intelligent design. I agree that plastic intakes didn’t always work out however. The idea was to illustrate the difference between quality and perceived quality. I wish I would have made that point more clear when I made the video.

Thanks for your input.

[cbriden]

quality = reliability to me.

It is taking the extra steps, spending the time and the money while something is cracked open to give a high probability of a long service life. It is also about having the skills, tools and experience to recognize what needs to be done. It is the whole package. very difficult to achieve all these things.

[dan]

i am not saying you are wrong Eric in many cases you are correct and i knew what you where saying i was giving a example of where i would not want a plastic intake, plastics have come a long way and they are much stronger and more developed than they used too be, heck we make assault rifles and sport rifles from plastic now too make them lighter… in some cases i have no issues using plastic intake manifolds like on some four cylinder engines it wont hurt a thing no coolant really goes through them that could leak into oil like the 3800s i have seen some engines where the use of a plastic intake manifold has no negative effects rather it results in cost and weight savings!

[EricTheCarGuy]

[quote=”13aceofspades13″ post=76445]i am not saying you are wrong Eric in many cases you are correct and i knew what you where saying i was giving a example of where i would not want a plastic intake, plastics have come a long way and they are much stronger and more developed than they used too be, heck we make assault rifles and sport rifles from plastic now too make them lighter… in some cases i have no issues using plastic intake manifolds like on some four cylinder engines it wont hurt a thing no coolant really goes through them that could leak into oil like the 3800s i have seen some engines where the use of a plastic intake manifold has no negative effects rather it results in cost and weight savings![/quote]

No offense was taken. This is a discussion after all and I’m not always right. I got what you were saying. I was just trying to put a finer point on what I had said in the video.

Thanks again for you input.

[Kevin Criswell]

[quote=”TNT” post=76379]
Also In the UK most garages seem way too quick to opt for new break calipers especially when it might take a little extra time to get them in a bench vice to help lubricating getting stuck and partially pistons moving freely again.[/quote]

It often is a liability issue.

Here at the shop, busted dust boots or jammed pistons get a new caliper. It is not that I am not capable of rebuilding a caliper (it was a required course when I was trained long ago) it is that the liability of my self and shop goes sky high if I rebuild master cylinders and/or calipers. If a rebuilt caliper fails and I rebuilt it all the responsibility of possible damage goes on me 100% if that part was replaced and replaced correctly a failure is less likely to set on me 100%.

Now guide pins and slides I take care of myself, no sense replacing a caliper if the guide bolts can be replaced and the guides lubricated.

[Andrea Orsini-Boyer]

I dont know if i’d say quality of workmanship is a question of perspective. You ither did a proper job, or you did not. If the fact that it takes longer displeases anyone, and they wish for you to go faster, quality will be compromised.

As for interior quality in a car or pickup, or what-have-you, when they made regulard plastic dashes that just felt like crap and looked like crap, i would argue that it was very poor quality, and i doubt anyone can disagree.
Otherwise, i am proud to have a vinyl wrapped dash in my vintage Honda, and i will take proper care of it to keep it clean.
However, i have a bit of a hole in the vinyl at one spot, and a couple scratches. It is 25 years old, afer-all..
BUT, these days, they have the soft-touch plastic, which feels almost like the vinyl. It’s not as soft, and dosnt feel as nice, but on the other hand, i highly doubt itll crack like the oldschool GM dashes are famous for.

There are also a host of other quality grades, like the seat fabric and plastics and such, but i think the above example is good enough.

As for mechanical or body quality, thats a tough one to say, but examples of poor quality can be found in many newer cars aswell as older ones. Certain cars love to rust all over the place, and i know mine is one of them.. however, many cars, even after 20 years have passed, are still built with poor metal and rust all over the place.. and they have much less of an excuse.

At the end of the day, however, it’s important to realise that when you do a quality job, costumers come back.

[Kevin Criswell]

[quote=”Ayeobe” post=76903]
As for mechanical or body quality, thats a tough one to say, but examples of poor quality can be found in many newer cars aswell as older ones. Certain cars love to rust all over the place, and i know mine is one of them.. however, many cars, even after 20 years have passed, are still built with poor metal and rust all over the place.. and they have much less of an excuse.
[/quote]

With the rust issue alot has to do with the new metal coating and painting process. Back in the early 90’s they drastically changed the type of paint and primer and clear coats (EPA thing) and the result was clear coats that came off in huge chunks. It was more of a new tech issue than a quality issue. Everytime we get a new major tech change, the first two generations seem to be the most problematic as they iron out the issues. CVTs are like that, Nissan’s first CVT was a disaster and very unreliable, now that they are on their 3rd generation their CVT transmission seem to perform quite well.

The biggest problem I see these day with quality is not really with the OEMs it is the aftermarket parts.

[Author]

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