Over and above mechanics duty

[John V]

Here’s an example:
If a customer asks to check the brakes, what would or should that include?? Pads, rotors, calipers? Or whichever he/she wants to do?
:unsure:
Seems to me only checking any one of those is an insult to the customer’s intelligence. If I were the mechanic me thinks going over the assembly as a whole would be a great proactive business decision to make, or would I be losing money….
Please share your comments

Topic

[James P Grosso]

Question is not totally clear?
If your just installing tires or rotating tires and the customer asks to check the brakes, they usually just want to know how much pad is left so they know if they will need a brake job fairly soon.
If the customer comes in with a problem with the brakes, then they want you to find out the cause of the problem and what it will take / cost to fix it.

[John V]

Ok point well taken. I guess I’m frustrated because I’ll ask the question when my car is in for whatever.
I always hear fine, fine, fine, then go in again and they say OH you need pads, rotors maybe a caliper or two!!
I think I’d rather pay extra labor cost than labor cost and the whole job. It was just a thought, and thanks very much fir your response!

[James P Grosso]

I know some shops will try to upsell customers full $800+ brake jobs wither that need it or not. These places make money but give the repair industry a black eye in the public view.

[Rob]

[quote=”johnnyguitar” post=171082]Ok point well taken. I guess I’m frustrated because I’ll ask the question when my car is in for whatever.
I always hear fine, fine, fine, then go in again and they say OH you need pads, rotors maybe a caliper or two!!
I think I’d rather pay extra labor cost than labor cost and the whole job. It was just a thought, and thanks very much fir your response![/quote]

what I would tell you to have them show you the brake… dont ever beleave them what they say… how do you know if they really check it or not… then you will also get to learn what to look for…
to tell if you have bad calipers are sometime hard to tell untill you do the job it self… because they might look completly fine out side but they are starting to seze on the inside… or your boot can be starting to go bad… only thing you can tell is by the thinkness diffrents between inner and outer and the drivers and passagers sides.. doesnt tell you for sure it is the caliper but it also could be the boot pins (I forget what you call them)… what you can have them also do is check the rotor thinkness and see if they feel any warping in it… you can do it your self by feeling if the rotor is smooth…
my thoughts are learn how to check it yourself and when it is at the shop and on the lift check it yourself too… so they dont say they did and really didnt

but what I also check is ball joints ,tie rod’s and cv axle’s and wheel bearing… have them show you what to look for and how they check it… what you will see them do is look for any greese from the boots and shake the tires left/right…up/down and spin it…
also check you brake line and your brake hose too.. and have them explain to you what to look for and how to tell if they are bad

FYI I would rec wareing dirty cloths because your hands will most likely get dirty if you do what they tell you

[Jason White]

A quick visual is one thing but if you have to take anything off or get out any equipment there needs to be a charge for that. If there is a problem with the brakes diagnostics may be required, depending on what is the problem. If they don’t want to pay, they can go to one of these places:

[quote=”451Mopar” post=171085]I know some shops will try to upsell customers full $800+ brake jobs wither that need it or not. These places make money but give the repair industry a black eye in the public view.[/quote]

And they are always happy to take a look at it and give a nice estimate.

[zero]

[quote=”Jasonw1178″ post=171186]And they are always happy to take a look at it and give a nice estimate.[/quote]

They’re usually the ones who will look at it for free too.

Personally, a “free” inspection when the tires are coming off is only visual. Maybe measuring the friction surfaces and looking for any faults.

If you want to pay for a brake inspection though, I’ll pull the calipers right off and make sure everything’s in working order.

As for selling calipers when there is no failure, it’s not completely uncommon. Of course several factors com into play, but a few years ago I went through a 4 hour Raybestos seminar and think about this for a second. For every kilometer you drive, you average about 5 brake applications (their numbers). So there’s 1.6kms in a mile so we’ll say 8 applications per mile, because 8 is easy. This is assuming regular city type commuting, obviously reality varies the figures. So at 100,000 miles your brake caliper has gone through 800,000 application cycles. Depending on the application, it’s not unreasonable for that to become something that’s “best practice” when the number of applications hits 1,000,000.

[Jason Koneman]

If you pay to have your oil changed and don’t do it yourself then maybe consider going to a dealership for oil changes. On my Fusion I take it to the Ford dealer and pay jut under $50.00 for an oil change, tire rotation and multi-point inspection that includes measuring tire tread depth and brake pad thickness.

On my Mini they do an inspection anytime they touch the car and the computer (maybe not the most accurate) monitors break wear as well. For instance the car is currently showing a 36000 mile life remaining on my front brakes and 9000 miles remaining on my rear brakes.

I record all of my service info on http://www.Cargly.com (totally free) and it emails reminders of when something needs to be looked at or service be done.

[James P Grosso]

[quote=”jkoneman@gmail.com” post=171218]I record all of my service info on http://www.Cargly.com (totally free) and it emails reminders of when something needs to be looked at or service be done.[/quote]

I might have to try that Cargly.com
I record maint in the users manuals, and have a spread sheet with some info, but the reminders would be nice.

[Jason White]

[quote=”DaFirnz” post=171206]As for selling calipers when there is no failure, it’s not completely uncommon. Of course several factors com into play, but a few years ago I went through a 4 hour Raybestos seminar and think about this for a second. For every kilometer you drive, you average about 5 brake applications (their numbers). So there’s 1.6kms in a mile so we’ll say 8 applications per mile, because 8 is easy. This is assuming regular city type commuting, obviously reality varies the figures. So at 100,000 miles your brake caliper has gone through 800,000 application cycles. Depending on the application, it’s not unreasonable for that to become something that’s “best practice” when the number of applications hits 1,000,000.[/quote]

That is an interesting point, and I’ve never quite thought about that, BUT….. calipers are not a wear item. Also, there are many other components of the brake system, as well as the rest of the vehicle that see many possibly billions of operations in a 100K mile time and so where do you stop replacing parts just because? No automotive engineers from any of the manufacturers are placing calipers on the replacement list on the service schedule except for a few applications so to sell a customer on that based on those facts is fraud. Don’t let sales people get in your head and make you give bad practices. Now, if there is something wrong with the calipers and the customer says “I don’t understand how it could fail when the car isn’t that old” and you could bring that up, and it would match, but you can’t replace parts “just because”. Remember, you got that advise from Raybestos, and they are not a car company. It’s like asking a barber if you need a haircut. Also, a lot of companies try to sell based on “biased wear” and once again, there is an application for that but, there is a tollerance to that. Some bias is normal.

[Ole Eggers]

[quote=”Jasonw1178″ post=171284][quote=”DaFirnz” post=171206]As for selling calipers when there is no failure, it’s not completely uncommon. Of course several factors com into play, but a few years ago I went through a 4 hour Raybestos seminar and think about this for a second. For every kilometer you drive, you average about 5 brake applications (their numbers). So there’s 1.6kms in a mile so we’ll say 8 applications per mile, because 8 is easy. This is assuming regular city type commuting, obviously reality varies the figures. So at 100,000 miles your brake caliper has gone through 800,000 application cycles. Depending on the application, it’s not unreasonable for that to become something that’s “best practice” when the number of applications hits 1,000,000.[/quote]

BUT….. calipers are not a wear item. [/quote]

I beg to differ. Basically everything that has moving parts is a wear item. The pistons move against a rubber seal and it is bound to wear. Also, rust gets in there adding to the wear. It is only a question of driving conditions that determines how fast it wears.

Also, I don´t get the mentality of changing just one caliper. Both will have seen the same use and even if only one has failed so far, the other one is soon to follow IMHO. Now, I´ve seen a lot of moaning here about mechanics being scoundrels who tries to rob you blindly because they want to change some parts. I find it hard to believe they all are. And which would you rather do ? Pay for an extra caliper now and have some peace knowing, that your brakes works at full capacity and brakes evenly, or go to the shop again after a short period of time and use a lot of your time doing so ?
Either way, from what I see on these forums, you don´t want to pay for parts (you in general terms, not the OP specifically) but you also don´t want to spend time nor money to get your car fixed properly. If the mechanic wants to put some parts in your car, he is a rip off trying to steal from you, but if he doesn´t and you have to go again, he is a shoddy mechanic since he couldn´t foresee, that the other caliper would fail soon.

These are probably gross exaggerations but I think you know what I´m getting at….. maybe this should be a topic on its own.

From a mechanics standpoint, it´s damned if you do, and damned if you don´t .

[Jason White]

[quote=”Iznogood” post=171844]I beg to differ. Basically everything that has moving parts is a wear item. The pistons move against a rubber seal and it is bound to wear. Also, rust gets in there adding to the wear. It is only a question of driving conditions that determines how fast it wears.

Also, I don´t get the mentality of changing just one caliper. Both will have seen the same use and even if only one has failed so far, the other one is soon to follow IMHO. Now, I´ve seen a lot of moaning here about mechanics being scoundrels who tries to rob you blindly because they want to change some parts. I find it hard to believe they all are. And which would you rather do ? Pay for an extra caliper now and have some peace knowing, that your brakes works at full capacity and brakes evenly, or go to the shop again after a short period of time and use a lot of your time doing so ?
Either way, from what I see on these forums, you don´t want to pay for parts (you in general terms, not the OP specifically) but you also don´t want to spend time nor money to get your car fixed properly. If the mechanic wants to put some parts in your car, he is a rip off trying to steal from you, but if he doesn´t and you have to go again, he is a shoddy mechanic since he couldn´t foresee, that the other caliper would fail soon.

These are probably gross exaggerations but I think you know what I´m getting at….. maybe this should be a topic on its own.

From a mechanics standpoint, it´s damned if you do, and damned if you don´t .[/quote]

I would not argue against replacing both front calipers. It’s like replacing both rotors even though only one is under spec, it’s about keeping things even. BUT to just change calipers because of mileage is wrong and is part of what’s wrong with our industry and who mechanics have a bad reputation. Even non moving parts take a certain amount of wear. Say a frame on a pickup truck after 200K miles probably isn’t as rigid as it was when it was new.

[Ole Eggers]

[quote=”Jasonw1178″ post=171953][quote=”Iznogood” post=171844]I beg to differ. Basically everything that has moving parts is a wear item. The pistons move against a rubber seal and it is bound to wear. Also, rust gets in there adding to the wear. It is only a question of driving conditions that determines how fast it wears.

Also, I don´t get the mentality of changing just one caliper. Both will have seen the same use and even if only one has failed so far, the other one is soon to follow IMHO. Now, I´ve seen a lot of moaning here about mechanics being scoundrels who tries to rob you blindly because they want to change some parts. I find it hard to believe they all are. And which would you rather do ? Pay for an extra caliper now and have some peace knowing, that your brakes works at full capacity and brakes evenly, or go to the shop again after a short period of time and use a lot of your time doing so ?
Either way, from what I see on these forums, you don´t want to pay for parts (you in general terms, not the OP specifically) but you also don´t want to spend time nor money to get your car fixed properly. If the mechanic wants to put some parts in your car, he is a rip off trying to steal from you, but if he doesn´t and you have to go again, he is a shoddy mechanic since he couldn´t foresee, that the other caliper would fail soon.

These are probably gross exaggerations but I think you know what I´m getting at….. maybe this should be a topic on its own.

From a mechanics standpoint, it´s damned if you do, and damned if you don´t .[/quote]

I would not argue against replacing both front calipers. It’s like replacing both rotors even though only one is under spec, it’s about keeping things even. BUT to just change calipers because of mileage is wrong and is part of what’s wrong with our industry and who mechanics have a bad reputation. Even non moving parts take a certain amount of wear. Say a frame on a pickup truck after 200K miles probably isn’t as rigid as it was when it was new.[/quote]

I never said anything about replacing anything solely because of mileage. I said “If one caliper fails, the other is soon to follow”.
Now, if it is steering knuckles, do you also only replace one ? Like with calipers, I do everything in pairs when it comes to steering and suspension. It will all have seen the same mileage and the customer needs an alignment anyway. If you only replace one … what are they called ? Tie rods ?Steering knuckles ?.. and the other falters shortly after, how do you explain to the customer, that he needs alignment again ? He gets to spend a little more money NOW if you replace both sides but he only needs one alignment. It´s more expensive for him and more time consuming if you don´t do both sides at once. The same with the struts. Both dampers will have seen the same use and wear, but do you really only change the one that has started leaking / lost damping effect? In that case, you are giving your customer a deathtrap back since the suspension is working unevenly, unless you do both sides.

I know I´m a stickler with my work, but I´ve never had complaints because I was thorough. If they want a half-assed job done, go elsewhere. I take a pride in my work and I have a peace of mind when I give back a car I know won´t let them down on account of what I´ve done.

[Jason White]

[quote=”Iznogood” post=171954]I never said anything about replacing anything solely because of mileage. I said “If one caliper fails, the other is soon to follow”.
Now, if it is steering knuckles, do you also only replace one ? Like with calipers, I do everything in pairs when it comes to steering and suspension. It will all have seen the same mileage and the customer needs an alignment anyway. If you only replace one … what are they called ? Tie rods ?Steering knuckles ?.. and the other falters shortly after, how do you explain to the customer, that he needs alignment again ? He gets to spend a little more money NOW if you replace both sides but he only needs one alignment. It´s more expensive for him and more time consuming if you don´t do both sides at once. The same with the struts. Both dampers will have seen the same use and wear, but do you really only change the one that has started leaking / lost damping effect? In that case, you are giving your customer a deathtrap back since the suspension is working unevenly, unless you do both sides.

I know I´m a stickler with my work, but I´ve never had complaints because I was thorough. If they want a half-assed job done, go elsewhere. I take a pride in my work and I have a peace of mind when I give back a car I know won´t let them down on account of what I´ve done.[/quote]

I totally understand where you are coming from. In a case where say someone’s inner tie rod has excessive play, it’s best to say they NEED the worn inner tie rod end, but since you have to take the outer off anyways, and those do commonly go bad anyways, give the the option of replacement by Recommending them to replace it, even suggest to do the other side as well, but be sure they know the difference between what they actually need, and what you are suggesting. Their car, their money, let them decide. People honestly really like that. It also covers your butt if they decline and then a month later the other part fails and they don’t have anything they can say that you didn’t tell them. I’m sure you know this, but typing this out for all those who might be listening in.

[Ole Eggers]

Jason, you are right. That´s exactly my point.

🙂

[Author]

Replies