No start no crank 96 LS400 after bat disconnect

[garry]

Hi, just got a beat up 96 LS400 and was doing some work on it today. Thought it best practice to disconnect the negative battery terminal while I was doing stuff to be safe.

After I had finished and reconnected the battery terminal, I got this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNv0LOWGTks
doesn’t crank at all. started this morning fine before I did all this.

Tried various methods online for resetting the immobilizer with no luck. It’s worth noting that I don’t have the original key or fob, just one that works in the ignition and doors, not trunk.

not sure if I screwed up somewhere or this is supposed to happen and there’s some simple procedure I need to follow.

Topic

[garry]

bleh can’t find anything online, going to make a thread on clublexus and see if anyone there knows anything.

Edit: wait, I’m dumb, I can just call the lexus dealer in the morning and ask them.

[garry]

update: hooked up the replacement ECU and it’s helped, but not fixed the missfires.

The plus sides:
The Trans no longer kicks going into gear
actually will rev smoothly and give power
no longer smells like gas when I’m idling and no longer smokes more than my uncle

however…
still a little smoke, smells kinda rich
has an intermittent misfire at idle…sounds like it’s just one cylinder now.

I put in plugs two days ago to give myself some more time (the old ones were fouled beyond recognition) before I could fix the actual problem. I pulled them today and they look pretty bad themselves. Could the remaining missfire be the new plugs after being soaked with gas for 2 days?

[Its me]

Post the live data of the ECU as well as Freeze Frame of the DTCs and that may help… Also check for pending codes and post…

-Karl

[garry]

new plugs seemed to have fixed it, gave it an oil change too. she feels a little down on power but I happen to know the cats are clogged, taking her into an exhaust shop tomorrow or monday hopefully it’ll help.

I’ll post some afr sensor data in a bit if you don’t mind looking at it for me, there are no codes for it but i’m concerned being bathed top to bottom with gas for who knows how long might have thrown one of the sensors off.

OH, and the smoke.

…so uh, this car has a power steering air control valve that does something at idle when you turn the wheel to let air into the intake and raise the RPM so it’s smooth, apparently they are well known for leaking. While I was doing the plugs I notcied ATF in the intake, confirmed by pulling out one of the feeding vacuum lines from the valve and sprayed it out with tb cleaner, came out with some PS fluid. I think the smoke was that burning. I’ve ordered a new valve and capped off the old one’s ends and looped the nubs they plug into on the intake together for a temporary stopgap. since then I’ve gotten no smoking.

Suppose all of this is normal for an 18 year old car, but boy is there a lot of work for me to tackle.

[Its me]

Sounds like you are running down the leak…

My concern on the power may be a coil going bad (I think this is a waste spark system)… Check for a pending P030X code….

A look at all the live data both in open loop and closed loop may help…

All the best…

-Karl

[garry]

Whew, alright so it’s been awhile, had my phone break and took me a few weeks to get a replacement that could run my obd2 app.

I tried the data recording feature on the app, this was the result, it opens in excel.
https://mega.co.nz/#!cZozQIbQ!KKUYsxu4-m8oL7aMD_RBTZ3ndn9MpM3tbpvbVNb75Sw

i set the recording interval to .5 seconds, if this is too much let me know what data you want (under what circumstances, I drove around town for a bit while I recorded all this) and I’ll try to get it.

[Its me]

OK. Here is what I am reading.

It looks the vehicle was started at a good operating temperature (97 degrees celcius) and is working with the proper parameters for telling the ECU to go into closed loop.

It looks like the vehicle was moved out of a warm environment (garage perhaps or was stationary for a while) and driven or the engine revved on the streets where it was much cooler (in a 50 degree environment)

Look at the difference between Bank 1 and Bank 2 LTFT (ignore the STFT for now). Bank 1 is operating nicely, Bank 2 is adding fuel. LTFT on Toyotas/Lexus usually is between -20% and +20%. You would like this number to be as close to 0% as possible in a perfect world. As stated, Bank 1 (the Bank with the #1 cylinder, in your case the right bank as facing the car) is running pretty well (under 1% at idle), Bank 2 is getting additional fuel added (slightly over 8%). While 8% is not bad, it is showing you a difference between the two banks, so something is happening on bank 2 to cause additional fuel to be entered into that bank. In other words, it is not happening to both banks, so the difference can be detected somewhere in the bank 2 side… This kind of make things easier to diagnose.

Now lets look at Bank 1 S1 and Bank 2 S1 Voltage (this is the upstream/ first A/F or O2 sensor voltage). We are seeing pretty much what we want to see, a nice rapid bounce generally between .9 and .1 Voltage. This means that the computer and fuel system are doing what it is supposed to do… Rapidly change between rich (.9) and lean (.1) for best fuel economy.

Since I cannot tell the temperature of the CAT, which has to get to light off temperature (600+ degrees Fahrenheit) to ensure the Emissions system is working as it should. It does not look like the cat(s) are working as they should, because when light off temperature occurs you will see Bank 1 S2 and Bank 2 S2 (downstream O2 sensors behind the cat) stabilize around .6-.8 volts… Sure there will be some fluctuation, but you should see that more on the high end… This voltage not staying relatively high is a contributor to the ECU figuring out your cat(s) are not working efficiently and throwing a P0420 or P0430 code. But I think you already know you have an issue with the cat… A quick and easy test is to use a laser thermometer to check the temp difference from the inlet of the cat to the outlet of the cat. The outlet of the cat should be 100 degrees F warmer than the inlet on a properly working cat.

Seeing the freeze frame data of the error codes may help as well…

Also, what monitors are still “not ready”… You should be able to see this with your scanner. I am sure you have at least one not ready, maybe more…

But to look at it, it looks like your issue is on Bank 2 somewhere and that is about all I can tell from the numbers I have here…. Could be vacuum related, could be bad ignition situation (coil or plug), or a leaking fuel injector.

Note you said earlier your tech told you your #4 and #6 injectors were sticking… Well, guess where #4 and #6 are… Bank 2…. Also, since you are having other issues note that #4 and #6 are next to each (possible head/head gasket related)

I would put a noid light on those injectors and ensure they are not grounding or having issues in some way.. Ensure they are clicking and are not cracked and have any leaks…. Perhaps they are damaged in some way from remaining stuck open.. You may need to do a compression test/leak down test on that bank as well… Remember, if you replace fuel injectors, use only DENSO and ensure they are the proper type (they are color coded)

Lastly tying this issue together with fuel injectors being stuck on and a bad cat, an overly rich condition can cause a cat to overheat and possibly melt the internals of the cat…. FYI….

Good luck

-Karl

[garry]

I love how incredibly info packed and comprehensive your posts are karl lol.

alright up to the part about cats I think we’re on the same page and i’m following you nicely. On the subject of the cats, both upstream ones are ruined, by which I mean I took them off and they were melted/blocked. no choice but to bang em’ out and put them back in till I can afford replacements. I’m worried about the third downstream one, might have issues too but the damn thing looks like it’s welded in and covered in an extensive heat shield so I can’t take it off to check…

so on the subject of bank 2, yeah the guy told me the ECU was sending them a constant “on” signal (remember I ended up replacing it). I’ll look into just what a noid light is and see if I can pick one up lol.

Would that combustion gas tester in the coolant kit that autozone has be ok for testing the HG?

Also thinking of checking fuel pressure, I can hear a whining coming from the trunk (the fuel tank on this car is inbetween the trunk and back seats.) The thing is the sheet metal and sound proofing between where the third brake light/speakers are has been removed so I’m not sure if it’s normal and I’m just hearing it because that’s missing.

I’ve seen enough terrible cheap third party parts on engines cause problems (including my old es300 in the form of coil packs) to agree that if I have to get replacement injectors it’ll be OEM or bust. would rather have a used/refurbished denso injector than a brand new third party.

so current plan is:
compression test on bank 2
noid light on bank 2 injectors, particularly #4 and #6
check fuel pressure

also of note but not sure if related to anything: vacuum reading at idle is wack, showing low (14 in/hg at idle, 10 with AC on, sometimes lower). engine sounds not the best either, I was over at my dad’s today and he’s not a mechanic or anything but he remarked that timing sounded off. I took a video of it at idle, not sure if there’s anything you could tell without actually being here to listen to it though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VnOd1eDU6c

previous owner did tell me he had the belt done by a friend, along with ignition coils, though I have to say I had a look at the coils and they look very much used.

[Its me]

I think you are on the right track with what you have laid out as your plan of action. Except I would do the noid light test first.

A noid light is something that plugs into an individual injector harness and should blink when you are turning over/running the engine (ECU sends ground in order to energize the fuel injector). If the light stays on, then your injector is getting power all the time. No light means that they are not getting power to energize, either positive voltage or a ground is not getting to the injector harness.

HF has a good noid light set.

http://www.harborfreight.com/11-piece-noid-light-and-iac-tester-set-97959.html

As far as your low vacuum, yes that is an interesting clue to the puzzle, that could be related to an exhaust restriction as well. Your compression test may lead you to find out your timing is off (maybe only a few teeth). The whole bank being lower than normal (compare to other bank if you need to) may show you something. FYI a rough figure is that a cylinder should not be lower than 150 psi with over 200 being a very good number.

The tester for HG leak should pick up a head gasket leak, but they are not 100% accurate. But it is a quick and easy test and if it comes back positive, it is worth it. Also it only shows if exhaust is leaking into a coolant jacket (I.E. there could be a leak between cylinders, not effecting the coolant and thus would not show a color change (leak).

HF also has a very good fuel pressure tester if you don’t have one, but for this car I do believe you need a special banjo adapter and bolt to attach to the fuel line at the fuel filter. Also, while your fuel pump may be making noise, the fact that you are getting a richer condition and it seems to flow nicely through the RPM ranges when revved leads me to believe that you are getting proper fuel pressure.

The melted cat really leads me to believe that this car did have extra fuel getting into the exhaust system (fuel injectors stuck on) and your cats were melted by this, so the best we can hope is you have damaged fuel injectors and they just need replaced. Also if you replace the fuel injectors, ensure you install a new O-ring set. Many times on older vehicles the O-rings become like plastic and will not seal when you put a new injector in (spewing gas everywhere)…. Also hopefully your timing isn’t off either (two bad things at once), but when you get many hands on a car, many things can be suspect…

Here is a very good video Eric made about exhaust restrictions and reading a vacuum gauge if you have not seen it before.

Good luck

-Karl

[garry]

I’ll make a goal of doing all that by next week lol.

Hey uh, so I was going over vacuum stuff (inspected all vacuum lines and sprayed them down with tb cleaner, quite thoroughly) to try and rule out leaks, because it’s kinda the only one of the discussed tests I can do right now with what i have lol.

…anyway while I was checking the gauge, I noticed that when I have the gas pedal burried into the firewall, it only shows 68% on the throttle gauge. is this normal?

pictures related:
vacuum lines (not that many compared to the newer es300, thank god, and I actually know what most of these ones do)

View post on imgur.com

gauges: this was taken with the key in “on” but car not started (I was reluctant to do this while it was running for noise reasons). however I did give in and start it and repeat the test, holding the throttle down it stays at that %
http://imgur.com/TXGk96b

Sorry I’m all over the place here in looking for things wrong with it, anxious to get it perfect but don’t have the tools with me so I look for what I can.

[garry]

Update with some youtube videos on the perceived problem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrKWsgr2UlU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsq-75YTPjk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6Qz9LlLGLM
when I say “66.3% that the throttle registers, I mean the exact same value that the gauge registers when I depress the pedal in the cabin to the ground.

further updates: I’ve tried playing with making the cables more or less slack to no change in the values. at idle the gauge reads 9% steady.

[garry]

last update of the night: googled around to find out how to test the TPS and got these values. there were 4 wires, first one I spliced into read 4.95v, constant and didn’t change when I forced the throttle open. second one started out really low (I think .5 or lower, sorry it’s in the vid just below this paragraph) and when the throttle was wide open it read about 3.6v. so, 3.6/5 = … 0.72, just about the reading I was getting moving the throttle cable to max myself (72.5% IIRC though i was getting 66.3% with the pedal itself). The other two wires…well one was ground, and one just had a very low (0.20-.25v) reading that didn’t appear to change with throttle position.

from what I’ve seen online it should have three wires, 1 input voltage, 1 output sensor reading, and 1 ground. ignoring the extra one I think I’ve found the input and sensor output. Online also said output should be 5% of input at idle and 90-100% at WOT.

so I’m probably within the values for idle, but WOT is way off, if this sensor works like the ones on google were described. so bad tps?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mAES-1jRcA

though from what I’ve read, that’s a really odd way for it to wear/go bad. they usually start to wear in the 0-20% region, not near WOT (unless maybe this was an autox car in another life)

[Its me]

Toyota/Lexus TPS’s are not really known for going bad. I believe that if you check your specs you will see that at idle or off the throttle should be around 0-20% and at WOT should be 60%-65% and higher. So I really believe you are within specs. I would not put any more time into the TPS.. And as in your first video where you revved the engine, everything looked fine as far as throttle/engine response…

-Karl

[garry]

Update after I temporarily nicked my buddy’s compression testing kit:

cyl 2, 4, 6, 8: 205, 210, 215, 220 \PSI
cyl 1, 3, 5, 7: 210, 230, 230, 235 \PSI

so bank 1 (or wait is that 2) is a little higher than the other, but they’re both pretty damn healthy. testing procedure was holding throttle down and cranking 5 revolutions or till the reading stabilizes (took about 5 either way) as per the box instructions.

kinda worried I screwed up though because I had a look online and it’s supposed to be around 180 for all cylinders lol

I gave up on the noid light after testing 2,4,6. mainly because it was a pain in the ass to get to the other ones 🙁

those 3 worked fine though lol. figured at least I got the two that were stuck open.

[Its me]

While these numbers do look a bit high, the important thing is that none is significantly different than the other (None greater than 10%). So it looks like you do not have a head/headgasket issue. This higher compression could be the result of carbon build up… Carbon build up can be caused by a rich condition…

Also I believe this engine is supposed to run on high octane gas.. Check this out. Are you running high octane in it? Did the previous owner use regular gas?

An example of a carboned up piston… If you pull your plugs and look down carefully (or better yet, get a probe in there, you can check for this condition)

As far as the low vacuum, I would consider disconnecting the exhaust and do the vacuum test again… As stated earlier you could have a restricted exhaust. I would try this first and see if you get a good vacuum reading… this can cause the engine to run rough…

What I would suggest now is dealing with what I suspect are bad and or dirty fuel injectors:

1- Ensure the suspect fuel injectors are clicking (using a long screwdriver put on top of the injector, feel for the clicking)

2- A power balance test at idle. Simply unplug the fuel injector from one cylinder at a time and see if the idle changes (it should drop slightly). If there is no change, something is wrong with that injector (now that we know the connections to them are good).

3- Do an ohms test on the injectors. While I do not have the specs, a good manual (Chilton or one like it) should have the ohms specs on these.

Lastly, if nothing else replace the two suspect injectors. I may hit a scrapyard and pick up a few and just try them out… Densos can be expensive. The best place I found to buy them is on Ebay

-Karl

[Author]

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