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That’s a tough one, Eric!
I am in two minds myself but tend to feel that older cars generally seem to be made of sturdier stuff, for example the proliferation of plastic used on new cars in place of metal – intake manifolds and the like…
I’ve even heard that some of the newer BMW’s have plastic, electric water pumps- I mean seriously “WTF!” – not built to last at all.
To all those that think “big deal, change your car sooner like every 7 years or so” BUT what about all the emissions pumped out to produce and recycle newer cars???Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The interior and fit and finish quality seems to be going up, as a whole. There’s still manufacturers using crappy interior materials, just look at the interior of my ’08 SRT4. Plastic everything, and it seems to all be the same, texture and all. Obviously a Caliber isn’t meant to be a fancy car by any means, it would just be nice to have some sort of variation. But that’s probably just my personal case.
A lot of the chassis components seem to be engineered closer to the bar minimum than they really need to be and it seems that costs are getting cut in places that had a higher quality part already. Then they throw a different part in there for no reason and it starts to fail. And fail early. Part of the result of what I’ve dubbed “minimum code” engineering, is that something that should have a certain tolerance to abuse or neglect. Ends up having a lesser tolerance. Creating more problems for almost everyone involved.
Everything seems to be getting built to target the short life span that u/ChrisKaye eluded to. Not that manufacturers have any reason to care about making a car last more than the average length of time it takes the first owner to pay it off.
In summary, fit and finish is getting better. Most parts seem to be getting engineered to the point where it’s just good enough.
My perception of this topic is a bit different looks like :whistle: , for me there are certain very important evolution steps in the history of engineering cars which makes a big difference if you look from nowadays on it.
The most important I point out here Eric, is the invention of the injection system for petrol/gas engines. This had to come with a engine management system and here we have the crux. Until those years there was no electronics in cars at all. You will not be able to repair a car with any kind of electronics, if those modules are not available anymore, think about that. All other stuff can be built or rebuilt without very big problems or lack of experience. Electronics … hehe just forget it, no way to manufacture yourself and even with the help of experts an engine managment system or even better a transmission managment connected with the engine management system, there is no way. You will end up having a car which is garbage.
And this is made by intension from the company(ies), because they need to have a moving market where people have to spend enough money to keep their business running. Long story short: this is inherent in the system.
I hope you got my point.
The solution (kind of) is to keep enough spare parts, functioning electronic components for your car to have it run way longer than usually it would.
The old Ford A’s from 1929 would never run at all, if there would have been parts used back those days, that you can’t repair or copy/rebuild… here is an impressive example of a guy, who restaurated a family car, check it out, it is awesome!!!
http://www.maurer-markus.ch/ford_a/index.en.html
http://www.maurer-markus.ch/ford_a/ford_a_restaurierung.en.html
Okay, thats what I wanted to say, cheers
Mat B)I’ve weighed in on this subject quite a bit in the past. I believe that older is better generally. But there are so many ways to look at it.
I’ve had 4 trucks, three of which I still have and the metal is far superior on the older trucks. Sure, it’s not galvanized but it’s also not recycled overseas steel either and it’s THICK!.
There is no denying that things were made to last in the old days, today it’s all about “smalller, lighter, cheaper” and along with industry crippling regulations and planned obsolescence newer cars/trucks are disposable due to their complexity and parts cost alone.Anything could be rebuilt in the old days, whether it be a starter, alternator, radiator, engine, transmission, fuel pump etc,
Today, everything is made to be replaced and while cars today require less “maintenance and tuneup”, the parts are usually non rebuild-able and expensive to buy and replace.
Mechanical fuel pump: 45 dollars
Fuel pump sending unit(electrical): 300-700 dollars(for the sake for the sake of discussion)That’s just one example. Then of course it is much easier to service anything on an older car or truck due to the simplicity and with basic tools to boot in most cases. Newer cars you gotta remove this to get to this to get to this and you often need that one special tool you don’t have.
Then, theres the character of older cars, they were real works of art..not hampered by safety, efficiency and emissions regulations of today that destroy automotive design by forcing engineers and designers to bend to the government, environmentalists and safety lobbies will .
Driving an older car, you are fully connected to the vehicle and the road. No electronic nannys, all the smells, sounds and feel as well as the quirks that a computer/design in a newer car would mask. Newer cars are so binary and cold, on or off. No real connection.There are so many aspects to this topic, I have left quite a bit out due to getting tired of typing B)
FYI, I was born in 1990
For me older cars are better. They feel so much more “alive” when driving, all the controls feel as if they have weight to them whereas newer cars are so easy to drive. I also prefer the old vinyl covered dash and trim over the new plastic stuff. The best thing though about driving “old” cars is they stand out more and people always came over to ask us about them, even a couple workshops said it was good to work on a car that was built properly and it was only a ’93 lol
I think Chevyman hit it on the head: Planned Obsolescence!
Eric mentions comparing a car 20 years in the future with a car from this year, personally I’m thinking “yeah, right! Like a car from this year will last 20 more in able to be compared!”Besides we’ll all be in flying cars by then powered by mini fuel cells, right? 😉
[quote=”ChrisKaye” post=154293]I think Chevyman hit it on the head: Planned Obsolescence!
Eric mentions comparing a car 20 years in the future with a car from this year, personally I’m thinking “yeah, right! Like a car from this year will last 20 more in able to be compared!”Besides we’ll all be in flying cars by then powered by mini fuel cells, right? ;)[/quote]
I’d have to agree with this. I have seen firsthand the rise and fall of quality. I’ve worked on stuff as early as the Ford Model A(1929).
I was born in the late 80s, but I’ve seen and owed cars from all decades. My current fleet of trucks is a prime example. I’ll quote another of mine:The older trucks are built better than the newer trucks, they last forever provided they don’t succumb to the rust monster. I have had multiple trucks, all from different eras. Even my current fleet shows the progression of degradation.
1955 Chevy: Solid sheetmetal(more like plate metal), thickest metal I’ve ever had on a truck. engine is original, has only been rebuilt once. Manual transmission has never been touched and still shifts great. 60 year old truck all original.
1974 Chevy: Decent thickness sheetmetal, original engine has been rebuilt twice, manual transmission still shifts great, wiring has had to be redone and floors have had to be fixed from rot (floors are thinner than the 55′). 41 year old truck, mostly original
1998 Dodge: Sheetmetal is 50% thinner than the 74′, more rust in less time(17 years), engine still running strong(318 with FI), auto tranny shifts good(OD 727) basically all old school mechanical components from dodges heyday.
2008 Chevy(No longer have this truck): Sheetmetal was paper thin…just looking at it made it crease and ding, engine had a misfire at 40,000 miles, transmission started going out at 51,000 miles, brakes didn’t last more than 30,000 miles, frame looked like it had been underwater after 4 years, bed dinged from the lightest loads shifting, brake drums couldn’t even be resurfaced, paint was thin and chipped easily, wheels oxidized after 2 years, among other things.
The truth is, just like refrigerators, washers and other appliances they just don’t make’m like they used to.
The more complicated you make the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain, and the cheaper the pipes you use, the more leaks your gonna have.I reckon newer cars are “better”. They are more reliable, comfortable, economical and they don’t rust as much. I feel like a lot of people forget about the rust thing… newer cars don’t seem to rust as much. Another thing people like to complain about is how newer cars are difficult to work on – times have changed, so have the tools you need to repair cars. Gone are the days where old Dave from down the road was fixing 1960s Fords with a hammer and a few bent screwdrivers.
To me, anything that came standard with fuel injection and ABS is a modern car. I was born in 1994 and drive a 2000 year car.
First cars are machinery: nothing more.
Actually owning an old car sucks because of sourcing parts. Buying a used part doesn’t help much when it has as much or more mileage on it than your car.
Now comparing old vs. new.
Cars are MUCH more reliable than there were. My parents start freaking out when their car is 3 years old – 25,000 miles on it – because in their day, that was when cars fell apart. Now, cars typically can hit 200K miles easily – my Cavalier is over 201K now – yes, I did some work on it and it’s GM OBD “1.5” REALLY sucks. But it’s a HELL of a lot better than the 1974 Chevy Vega my Dad had.
Safety feature are always improving.
And cars today are made with assemblies. ALL the manufacturers go to the big sub-assembly makers -like Bosch – and get things made. Frankly, the only thing you’re buying today is bodies and names – yeah, Subaru has got their boxer engine and some other brands got some unique things, but unless you’re buying some super high priced luxury vehicle or sports car, you got a cookie cutter commodity auto. That’s why when you go to your favorite auto parts store’s website and click on “cars that use this part”, it fills up your screen.
The point being is that quality has gone up tremendously in the last few decades. Sure there are mess ups – like Toyota and Lexus – but all in all things are getting better.
What IS annoying is all the electronic bells and whistles on the dashboard that fail. And the expensive updates.
Why should I spend $200 for a dashboard GPS and then $200 for updates on software when I can get a better GPS for less than $200 with FREE updates from Garmin – huh, Subaru?! WTF?!
And that dashboard crap is so un-intuitive, Nothing beats analog gauges – or appear as analog. This horizontal gas gauge that read right to left is not easy to read. Having a horizontal gas gauge that read from top to bottom would be better – right Subaru?
And all the electronic crap that the automakers INSIST on stuffing into the car is just distracting. My uncle has to spend a couple of weekends in a training class for his new Mercedes. Uh, for the price he paid, he should have had a 19 year old swimsuit model tutor him – at home when my aunt was away.
All in all, I’ll take a new piece of machinery any day. The safety features are awesome and new metal is well, new. And parts are easier to get.
Now, if only I could live without a car……
My 1995 civic was recently hit from behind by no fault of my own. The insurance company had my car for awhile and provided me with a brand new Sentra rental with a CV transmission. Being that it was somewhat similar type of car, 20 years of technology different, I can say without hesitation that my 20 year old honda is by far and away a better car. Not only does my Civic provide better road feel due to hydraulic vs electric power steering, the start button was annoying on the Sentra, and the entire car seemed tall, awkward, and much to tall with somewhat limited visibility. I hate the whole line of thinking that surrounds the late model cars. I recently rehabed a 1959 Oldsmobile back into shape with 100 percent stock pieces, and that cars ride, and visibility, and everything else about it put anything on the road now to absolute shame. In my best opinion, and I have owned and worked on cars as old as the 1920s to something very late model, I feel the apex of the automobile was about 1965. The reason I say this is because cars of the 50’s as beautiful as they are had their own set of quirks and could sometimes be clumsy by nature, but most of those problems were ironed out by the mid 60s. My expansive reasearch tells me that planned obsolecence was built into cars in about 1968. I have owned and still have enough GMs from the 60s and early 70s to make fair comparisons of such things as throttle linkages, body panel structures, seat fabric and a whole host of other items that I can honestly make a fair judgment. Specifically speaking in terms of GM A bodys, They got more junky with each generation of car being built. This becomes obvious when attempting to restore these cars and finding that something like an instrument cluster from the 60s may or may not be in good shape, but with the amounts of metal present, they can usually be fixed, but A body Gms from the 70s, even though they are newer, become harder to repair because of the actual construction and materials within. When trying to obtain good used pieces to repair or replace, the 60s parts not only have been saved more often, they always last longer given the same conditions. Case and point, how many 66 Chevelles do you see on the road vs 76 models? One could make the argument that the earlier cars were saved more, but sales figures would tell me that the later cars sold in bigger numbers, but were outlived by their older counter parts under the same conditions. I see the same thing now with my 95 Civic and its top notch materials vs a late model civic which is universally criticized for cheap materials.
one of the most gifted mechanics I have ever known worked on the brakes on an F150 back when the new model came out sometime in the mid to late 90s. As he bled the brakes I remember him telling me he could watch the firewall flex like Kleenex with each pump of the brakes. Nothing sums newer cars up better than that right there.
All excellent points made here already I would pretty much all agree with, that seem to come to the same two conclusions I have:
90’s (and most early 2000s) cars are the pinnacle of automotive manufacturing and engineering. They have almost all the modern/technological advances and features of a 2016 model year vehicle (particularly on a 90’s luxury car like Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Acura, etc) besides maybe the entertainment/connectivity which can easily be upgraded, yet they are just as solid and reliable, if not more so, than any generation of vehicle before them. You can purchase these cars in good running condition for pretty much dirt cheap right now. New parts are still very readily available at very affordable prices. Junkyards are also littered with this era. If I had the physical storage space to, I would buy as many 90s vehicles as possible right now and a donor car for each to keep it going. You can’t beat simplistic EFI & ABS with obd-II as far as reliable performance is concerned in my book.
The other point being, my “ideal” car would be a 60’s or 70’s resto-mod, with as many modern upgrades as possible. You know, take a totaled 2010-16 “muscle” car and put the running gear, suspension, and electronics in a solid retro chassis. Classic style & solid body with high performance and relatively reliable mechanicals.
Here is my thought on Resto mods, since I actually did that whole routine over a decade ago here was my feelings. A car from the 1960s is what I did, and it wasn’t a good drivetrain I removed, but it wasn’t horrible either. Just basic 60s boringness. After all the the work and money dumped in it, I would do it over again with something much older, say 30s 40s or 50s, because a lot of those antique cars have unservicable, antiquated running gear that makes a vehicle scrap metal without a drive train extraction and replacement. I would leave the dirty patina on it and run it daily. There isn’t a mechanic in the world who cannot keep a 60s or 70s car on the road with a bent screwdriver, however to have something like an ancient Packard or something weird like that with modern parts I feel would much more rewarding. Just my two cents worth.
Well first off, for “classic” car status in BC (and reduced insurance rates and special plates), your car needs to be 25 years old. Just throwing that out there as a sort of benchmark at least in my province.
That said, I think an “old car” is a car without a computer, so something pre 80s. However i was born in the late 70s so maybe that effects my perception.
Its 100% about perception. My 88 chevy that i used to have was great. When you stepped on the gas, there wasnt that 500ms lag of the computer figuring out what you wanted to do. It just opened the throttle and instant power to the wheels.I have a “new” 2002 car now, and it hesitates because there is more computer control. However my 88 was falling apart and built like shit. There were firewall leaks where the welds came together, and every 6 months or so something major seemed to fail. It was great to work on though, because it was all steel everywhere. Can just pound shit back into shape, no problem.
But you cant get stuck in the past. Your going to upgrade your car every 10-15 years, most people sooner than that. My new car has more horse power with a 4 cyl, better on gas, more safety features. But also more to go wrong.I had to reset the SRS code a few weeks ago. There was nothing wrong with the airbags, but i let the battery run down one too many times and it set the code. If i didnt have a scanner that read SRS codes, id be out a bunch of money to figure that out, or id be looking at an SRS light staring me down every time i used the car.
I think its not worth getting nostalgically attached to a car or decade. At the end of the day, cars like computers are tools. And upgrading will most likely give you more features in the long run. Although I do love people who have sweet older cars, and put time in to fix and maintain them. Even a dodge K car, that someone puts money into, babies, and loves. You can’t not appreciate the effort involved and the car definitely comes across better than it ever would have been new.
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