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Everything said in the video is accurate, although it maybe leaves a few things out. Before I was a tech, I was a service manager/writer for a used car dealership. That job was absolute hell largely due to what this guy is talking about, but there was an additional problem in being honest with customers.
What happens is that I honestly explain what is wrong and what repair is needed, in a technical way, the customer usually does not understand what they are being told. Because they don’t understand, they feel ignorant, then realize that they have no way of knowing if you’re telling them BS or not, then they become defensive/hostile, then the argument starts. This happened so many times, and I couldn’t deal with it. The concept of customers getting mad that they don’t understand repairs on their car, when they are at the shop in the first place because they aren’t qualified to deal with the car, is not something I can deal with face to face in a professional, courteous manner.
Machines don’t lie, and can’t be BS’d, which is why I like working with them. Humans are the opposite of that, which Is why I don’t like dealing with them. There is an artform to BS’ing customers regarding an honest repair, dumbing the reality of that repair down so much that they ‘think’ that they understand what happened. That is not my kind of art because I don’t respect a customer who needs to pay another to perform a task but can’t be alright with the fact that they are doing so because they are ignorant/unskilled in that area.
One great answer I’ve figured out is for the customers who think a 15 minute repair of some problem that rendered their only car useless isn’t worth paying for, simply because it didn’t take a long time.
“You’re not paying for what I did, it’s that I knew what to do.”
Another thing along those lines is that I no longer tell somebody that “it was a blown fuse”, because the response is something along the lines of “oh that’s all?, I could have done that”. Then they feel that’s not worth paying for, even though they chose not to investigate the issue themselves but to immediately put it in the hands of a professional (someone who, by definition, gets paid for what they do). Because of this attitude of it being ok to be a moron for free, blown fuses have become open circuits. I found and repaired a open circuit. There you go.
Well said Fopeano. Very well said.
One thing that really makes me lose respect for someone is when they have this idea that our knowledge and skills are just there, as though everyone has it, as though I have nothing better to do than mess with their vehicle. It just comes to us, we do nothing but mess with machines. It’s just “what we do”. Even where they have this idea that “anyone” could have told them that. What they don’t see is that I went to school for this, in which I paid for much of it, from there I had to do a lot of training, which most of which I was not paid for. Then, lots of learning by trial and error, and unfortunately in this field most of what you learn is learning the hard way.
What amazes me more than anything is how some people have a real hard time paying for diagnostics, but have no problem paying to have parts thrown at their vehicle. The psychology makes sense on the surface, they want their car fixed and are willing to pay for that, but when they have to pay for something that’s not fixing the car, they have a problem with that. So many people out there thing everything is real easy, clean and cut, or we just hook up a machine that tells us everything that’s wrong with the vehicle.
So the point of the video was why we have to “lie”. Well, it’s apart of the value game. The customer needs to beleive they got a lot of bang for the buck.
Here is my story of last summer of being lied to that is not like this tech’s story, at all. I have a code show up, and a knock noise that is intermittent on my big truck. I fear a possible timing issue from looking on line, that can always be misleading. I take it down to shop A. They tell me there is no problem with timing, the code is for EVAP, and to fix it, I need new catalytic converters. I’m really not kidding. I fix the EVAP code by replacing a really bad, rusted fuel filter that was pushing one line off. I also noticed one of my ignition coils suddenly changed brands and turned yellow. That is still fishy to me. Later, I suddenly start having very hard misfires that shake the truck, and stalls it a couple times. I limp it to shop A, who then was telling me I need new timing chains and cats. I argued that before they said it was not the case. So I limp it home. A friend tells me about shop B, who has more experience with Fords. I have the truck towed because at this point I don’t know what to think. Imagine my surprise when they can’t really find anything. There are no codes, it’s running smooth, and all he did was replace a fuel line fitting that was damaged by the fuel filter. I picked it up, and it was indeed running smooth. Not long after I got it home, it started running rougher, but never got as bad as before. I got a code for the cats. Cats I had replaced 2 years prior, at shop A. I took it to shop C for another opinion. Cost a bit, but I’m searching for real answers that would help me decide between shop A or B. Shop C confirmed shop B, and suggested I take care of the cats. They don’t do cats, and I’m not going back to shop A (they’re the cheapest). I buy the cats, and install them myself, which is far harder than any cats I’ve seen in Eric’s videos. But hey, I saved $500.
That code is cleared, and the misfire returns, but still no code for it. I’ve had misfires before, but got a code, and replaced that coil myself. That last time felt very different, and wasn’t getting a code. I drove it back to shop B, located in a small town north of me. I kid you not, the misfire stops the moment I reach that town’s border. Of course shop B finds nothing. I pick it up, misfire starts back up 2 miles outside the town shop B is located. Finally a code starts flashing and I sigh. I ordered 8 new ignition coils that night and ended my nightmare. I’ll go back to shops B & C, but A lost me. I bought a code reader just to save time.
The fact is that in the automotive industry there are both very dishonest and very honest people.
The dishonest will lie for the most part to screw people out of their money(to profit from them) and to suggest that those telling lies to customers are normally just honest traders is largely nonsense.
There is plenty of blatant evidence of dishonesty in the automotive industry from vehicle sales down to repair and maintenance. Then of course you have the incompetent as you will find somewhere in any industry which can also cost people money but that is another subject.
The guy who presented this video does some very good work if you have seen some of his other presentations. The person he described here is just a bottom feeder cheap skate and there is no shortage of people like that who resent having to pay the true cost of fixing problems and almost expect things to be done for them for nothing. But they would never do anything for you for nothing. Typically these types will never ever thank you for anything either. Paying $150 to a competent tech that fixes your stuffed computer after working on it for 3 hours is not only very reasonable but it is actually quite a cheap price. But you don’t deal with people like this by lying to them. You will probably be caught out later on if you do and there are better ways of handling them.
How many shops are using cameras to record daily activities?
I know many have surveillance cameras setup for security and insurance reasons, but are they ever used to show a customer how much labor time was spent on a repair?
Most large chain repair shops and dealerships are not good at building relationships with customers.
I’m not sure the best way to build customer trust, but I don’t think lying to them is the right answer.Thanks for the thank you’s fellas, I appreciate it. I just call it how it is.
451Mopar, I need to respectfully disagree with you on this one. I do completely agree that lying to customers to build trust is not the answer it should be, but it is indeed the right answer. It’s like being right about something, but for the wrong reason.
To put it as simple as possible:
Customers bring me the car to fix because they are not capable/equipped/skilled enough to deal with it themselves. It’s no different than a plumber/electrician/mason/contractor, in that the customer is paying somebody to problem-solve their very specific situation. As is normal, the car has a technical problem that took me years of training to fully “get” or understand. Maybe a rookie can figure it out, but they don’t really know why they’re right. In comes me, who does, trying to explain that to a customer. They don’t know, and they don’t understand what I tell them because of that.
If I tell them I want their money and they don’t understand why, they become hostile. It’s as simple as that, and only the most mature adults are able to get past the fact that it’s ok for them not to know everything. I can certainly understand the lack of trust, but customers have no choice. That’s why they’re paying for the service.
In the end, making customers feel intimidated/ignorant is not the way to build trust with them. Making sure that their car is fixed properly and that they think they know why is what does build trust. In the end, after all the BS conversations, fixing their concern is what makes them happy. The part of the conversation that this thread is covering is the part the shop convinces them to allow their car to be fixed.
Service writers exist only to prevent the customer from preventing me from fixing their car.
Also, you have a valid point about the cameras. I’d figure the normal customer reaction would be “It’s not my fault the guy doesn’t know what he’s doing”, but it could still be very helpful.
No problem. I get it, and I don’t disagree.
I guess I’m just searching for a way to get the customer to understand that Time, Training, and Tools are expensive, but there are some people you can never please.
What upsets me, I take a perfectly running car into the dealership for recall work, or warranty work and get it back with more problems than when it went in.
Stuff like half-way slit vacuum hoses, body/paint damage, damaged spark plug wires, loose connections, etc.[quote=”451Mopar” post=167998]No problem. I get it, and I don’t disagree.
I guess I’m just searching for a way to get the customer to understand that Time, Training, and Tools are expensive, but there are some people you can never please.
What upsets me, I take a perfectly running car into the dealership for recall work, or warranty work and get it back with more problems than when it went in.
Stuff like half-way slit vacuum hoses, body/paint damage, damaged spark plug wires, loose connections, etc.[/quote]I took a 95 Grand Prix in for warranty work. It needed the driver’s door window power assembly repaired. I got back a broken door panel. The dealership owner accused me of breaking the panel myself trying to fix it. Why would I try to fix something that the warranty copay was cheaper than the parts? Anyway, that dealership isn’t dead yet, but he did have to bring in an investor and changed the name to keep the doors open a little longer. He told me his tech making $50k a year wouldn’t lie. He’s losing a lot of business, and that’s no lie.It depends on what the customer is paying for. If they paid for an hour diag, then they paid for me to diagnose what’s wrong with their vehicle. They did not pay for my individual steps. In fact, the actual repair process is none of their business and I don’t care to discuss what exactly I did. If they ask, I’ll make up something. They paid for a service, not labor. Now if I tell them something is wrong with their vehicle that isn’t, and I know this, that’s fraud.
Mopar: Allowing customers to view videos of the tech working on their car would open the kind of worms you don’t want to be anywhere near when it opens. The kind of customer that would want to see that would be the same idiot that would disect it and milk it for all it’s worth, and would no doubt use it against you. I don’t even want to build relationships with those kind of customers.
That’s funny because I was actually taught to write up work orders thoroughly and explain how the diagnosis was reached. And in cases with seemingly ridiculous labour to put down why. Not because the customer needs to know, but so they know why they are paying what they are paying for.
A guy I knew took his F150 into the ford dealer to have a CEL diag’d. He was told that all 8 spark plugs and coils had to be replaced. No codes, no reasoning and the bill was just over $200, estimate was way more than that. I’m not saying you have to write a 1000 word essay on the issue. But c’mon, how do you expect someone to justify spending hundreds or thousands of dollars if you can’t justify to them what has to be done and why. How are service writers even supposed to sell something like that? Just by making shit up? And now we’re back to the start and how we’re all liars.
Congrats Fopeano; you laid that out very, very well.
Here’s an example of where lying to the customer was justified. A Air Force instructor pilot from the local base brought his new Subaru in for a 15k miles maintenance service. He was very polite, well-spoken, and had no problem with leaving the car for a few days.
On Friday he came in to pick up the car and wanted to know “what papers do I sign for warranty?”. Sorry, warranty does not cover maintenance or wear and tear. The cursing started and even pointing out the official Subaru terms of service poster hanging on the wall did no good. He paid and left; still cursing.
On Monday he was back complaining that the car was hard to start cold or hot, bucked and jerked, backfired all the time and was generally undriveable. We looked it over and found nothing before returning it.
A few days later he was back cursing over the same things. We kept the car and could find nothing wrong with it. I even drove the car back and forth to work for a few days with not an issue.Handed it back to him and sure enough; a few days later he was back still cursing over the same things. We promised we would go over the car with a fine tooth comb. (Ha…). The car was allowed to sit out in the lot for 4 days without being touched. We called him and told him the car was ready.
When he came in I fed him the biggest line of BS about driveability problems ever and apologized for not finding the problem sooner.The guy brightened right up and left happy as could be. He even dropped by a few weeks later praising us for “going out of our way to find the problem”. Little did he know his car was never even touched.
Were we unethical for lying in this case? Probably, but the circumstances required it.[quote=”Bluesnut” post=169261]Congrats Fopeano; you laid that out very, very well.
Here’s an example of where lying to the customer was justified. A Air Force instructor pilot from the local base brought his new Subaru in for a 15k miles maintenance service. He was very polite, well-spoken, and had no problem with leaving the car for a few days.
On Friday he came in to pick up the car and wanted to know “what papers do I sign for warranty?”. Sorry, warranty does not cover maintenance or wear and tear. The cursing started and even pointing out the official Subaru terms of service poster hanging on the wall did no good. He paid and left; still cursing.
On Monday he was back complaining that the car was hard to start cold or hot, bucked and jerked, backfired all the time and was generally undriveable. We looked it over and found nothing before returning it.
A few days later he was back cursing over the same things. We kept the car and could find nothing wrong with it. I even drove the car back and forth to work for a few days with not an issue.Handed it back to him and sure enough; a few days later he was back still cursing over the same things. We promised we would go over the car with a fine tooth comb. (Ha…). The car was allowed to sit out in the lot for 4 days without being touched. We called him and told him the car was ready.
When he came in I fed him the biggest line of BS about driveability problems ever and apologized for not finding the problem sooner.The guy brightened right up and left happy as could be. He even dropped by a few weeks later praising us for “going out of our way to find the problem”. Little did he know his car was never even touched.
Were we unethical for lying in this case? Probably, but the circumstances required it.[/quote]10/10 I love it. I think I love it most because we have been in the exact same situation at my shop and its bullshit. Some customers just want to believe you fucked up their car when the maintenance you performed was a mile away from their new issue.
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[quote=”451Mopar” post=167998]No problem. I get it, and I don’t disagree.
I guess I’m just searching for a way to get the customer to understand that Time, Training, and Tools are expensive, but there are some people you can never please.
What upsets me, I take a perfectly running car into the dealership for recall work, or warranty work and get it back with more problems than when it went in.
Stuff like half-way slit vacuum hoses, body/paint damage, damaged spark plug wires, loose connections, etc.[/quote]
This is a very interesting topic I would love Eric to reply to honestly but just seeing the two of you build on it is pretty interesting in its own. Here is my honest opinion on as many points as I can recall from memory. I am not a technician by any means. I did not go to school for what I know but I did take an apprenticeship from a good friend of mine who is a master mechanic. I know a lot of the basics. I have taken engines apart and bore them out and put them back together. I have adjusted valves most recently and yes it is all trial and error at this point. I have not completed my apprenticeship and I don’t think I will until my master mechanic has gotten me through every situation he believes will get me to learn everything I need to know. I have taken jobs on my own where I have forgotten to connect a sensor and the vehicle runs worse than before. I had to spend hours trying to find the issue and could not pin point it to save my life and when my master mechanic had to come and fix my problem, it took him two seconds to connect the connector that was loose. I did not do anything wrong when it came to the actual job just missed a step. I lost a customer at that point. I lost money as well because I had to cover gas for my master mechanic as well. I admit my wrong doings but if I had said the job just took a little longer than I had anticipated to the customer instead of telling him that I had missed a step and everything mentioned above, I would still be getting calls from him to try and fix his vehicles. It would not have been a bad lie because I do not cut corners in a car but take pride in having the issue resolved and resolve whatever caused the issue in the first place. Whether or not I would have forgotten something down the road on one of the vehicles well that I can’t say because mistakes do happen. Here is a theory on the shops that get these cars back out and do not work better or even worse than before. Eric mentioned this in several of his videos. Test drive. Every time that you do a job, test drive. The shops that charge a few dollars as opposed to those that charge an arm and a leg can’t afford the time to thoroughly go through all the checks to make sure the car is fixed. I have seen it where they do the job right in front of you and you see what they do and you believe that everything is right. these guys will charge cheap and because of that people will go and use them more readily that they would a good technician shop. more lines, more work, more money type thing. It is because of the pressure of time efficiency that they will cut corners. “you get what you pay for” type thing. now when it comes to lying about a job as I have seen some of these places do well that is something else because this will happen as well. I had a inner tie rod that was loose on my car once. I didn’t inspect it before I put the whole new rack into the car. I cut corners to save time as I am a full time student and work full time and only had a spare vehicle to use for only a few days. When I took the car to get it aligned, the technician told me I had it loose and because of that, they could not do the work without charging me. I took it to this mom and pop shop near my house that many people liked for tire and suspension service. Told them of the situation and what was needed on the car and left it there and got a friend to pick me up to go to school. I got back and started driving home to feel the car jerk like it was when the tie rod was loose. I got home and inspected it before going to work and noticed not only had they not tightened the tie rod (or they did a horrible job) but had forgotten to tighten down one of the bolts holding in the rack itself on the body and messed up the threads driving it like that. I taped the threads again and bolted new bolt as well as tightened the tie rod later when I got a chance after going to get a rental. some lies are ok depending on situation. Don’t lie about something on the car that could be major. Lives are at stake or could be.
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