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I waited a looooooooong time to make this video. Last year I posted on social media about this question and it was easily the most popular social media post that I’ve ever done. So I decided to do my own testing as I’ve always believed it was better to put new tires on the front. In my case, it was better to put them on the front, but I’m sure some of you will disagree with that. If so, let’s talk it out.
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About me: I live in Finland. I’ve been driving for 20 years in all kind of conditions. I drive around 50-60 thousand miles a year with FWD, RWD and 4WD vehicles, studded and non-studded tires.
This issue is not about experienced drivers. I know I can deal with oversteer and understeer, it’s not a problem for me. I like drifting cars. I’ve done some (unofficial) ice racing back in the day and I know my around cars.
What I can’t deal with is someone coming at me 60mph spinning wildly because they installed better tires at the front of their car and then aqua-/slushplaned at the rear. THAT is a problem.
[quote=”Mawerick” post=158682][quote=”Hockeyclark” post=158599]When it comes to FWD, I gotta say that putting the tires on the front is the way to go, especially in winter conditions.[/quote]
Sorry, no. What you really do need in all conditions is directional stability. If you have better tires at the front, you will lose the rear end sooner or later -> loss of control.The matter is not huge if the tires are in somewhat similar condition. I do rotate my tires on a regular basis to achieve even wear. However, Eric was talking about a situation where you only replace two worn tires with new ones. In that case, better tires must be installed at the rear. This is the recommendation of every single car manufacturer, tyre manufacturer and insurace company. You could even ask pro racing drivers and they would give you the same answer.
This is something that is not a matter of opinion. There is only one correct way to do this. Any other way is wrong.
The video has me seriously worried. Eric usually gives very good tips and people listen to him. I pray to god they don’t on this matter. Having poor tires at the rear might actually get someone killed. Heck, it does every single day. Cars are designed to protect their occupants best in a head-on collision. Worst case scenario is spinning across oncoming traffic and getting t-boned and this video is in reality promoting that scenario.[/quote]
You can make all the ‘by the book’ claims you want about putting the good tires on the rear but, it’s very clear in the video there was zero directional stability with the old tires on the front in the video. Please read my previous post as it responds directly to your claims.
Also at the end of the video I believe I said 4 tires are always best.
[quote=”Mawerick” post=158753]About me: I live in Finland. I’ve been driving for 20 years in all kind of conditions. I drive around 50-60 thousand miles a year with FWD, RWD and 4WD vehicles, studded and non-studded tires.
This issue is not about experienced drivers. I know I can deal with oversteer and understeer, it’s not a problem for me. I like drifting cars. I’ve done some (unofficial) ice racing back in the day and I know my around cars.
What I can’t deal with is someone coming at me 60mph spinning wildly because they installed better tires at the front of their car and then aqua-/slushplaned at the rear. THAT is a problem.[/quote]
I appreciate your input, but that’s purely hypothetical.
I guess our definition of “directional stability” is very different. I consider this to be correct: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directional_stability#Relative_effect_of_front_and_rear_tyres
It follows that the condition of the rear tyres is more critical to directional stability than the state of the front tyres.
I’m not trying to be an ass here. There are certain situations where having better tires up front will help you more. In a similar fashion, there are situations where not wearing your seatbelt will help you survive an accident. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be wearing your seatbelt since odds will be against you.
[quote=”Mawerick” post=158762]I guess our definition of “directional stability” is very different. I consider this to be correct: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directional_stability#Relative_effect_of_front_and_rear_tyres
It follows that the condition of the rear tyres is more critical to directional stability than the state of the front tyres.
I’m not trying to be an ass here. There are certain situations where having better tires up front will help you more. In a similar fashion, there are situations where not wearing your seatbelt will help you survive an accident. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be wearing your seatbelt since odds will be against you.[/quote]
Here’s the problem:
This article may be too technical for most readers to understand.
I know I can’t solve any of those equations. That is some ultra complicated stuff. I understand the conclusion of that section of the article, but the conclusion comes direct from those large equations. When are you going to know every single variable? Nobody is going to know every single variable at any point and time when we are in a vehicle. Those equations are for experiments in a scientific setting where you know every variable. That’s not real life. That’s getting into some impenetrable mathematics.
These equations do not take into account suspension response, driver skill, roll motion, and center of gravity changes during an maneuver; large variables which we are missing. Even if I had and could solve for all those variables I still don’t think it would change my answer.
I do agree with you that having the good tires on the (front or rear) of your vehicle is good dependent on the circumstances. Big puddles of standing water? Yeah, good tires on the rear for sure. FWD in winter? Good tires on the front. This is about all we can do here; make generalizations, have opinions, and point out specific circumstances where most of us already know what we want.
Again, I apologize for being so adamant on this one but it’s something I consider to be very important.
We all know that a sliding tyre has no directional stability, ie. it is unable to generate lateral grip. Same thing happens when a tyre is aquaplaning or slushplaning. Having shallow tread tires at the rear of the car is basically the same as having an invisible passenger sitting next to you waiting to pull on your handbrake randomly without any warning whenever you hit a puddle at any sort of speed.
On the video Eric was saying that understeering = lack of directional stability. In reality it’s the complete opposite. When the car wants to sail straight on despite steering input, it is actually _too_ directionally stable. This is still much safer than having an unstable car that is prone to spinning out. Like I said before, it’s pretty much always better to hit things head-on than sideways, since all the safety features (airbags, seatbelt tensioners etc.) work most efficiently under those circumstances.
Now I’m willing to say that if I’d only drive around snowy parking lots at 20-30mph max I’d probably put better tires at the front, since stability wouldn’t be a big issue at those speeds. However, very few people only do that kind of driving. Personally I don’t know any.
edit: Oh and it doesn’t really matter if your car is rwd, fwd or 4wd. It also doesn’t matter if it’s water, snow or slush you’re driving on. Better tires at the rear will give your car directional stability. Only surface where tread depth makes no difference is dry tarmac.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSz7cm6MwH0[/video]
[quote=”Mawerick” post=158814]Again, I apologize for being so adamant on this one but it’s something I consider to be very important.
On the video Eric was saying that understeering = lack of directional stability. In reality it’s the complete opposite. When the car wants to sail straight on despite steering input, it is actually _too_ directionally stable. This is still much safer than having an unstable car that is prone to spinning out. Like I said before, it’s pretty much always better to hit things head-on than sideways, since all the safety features (airbags, seatbelt tensioners etc.) work most efficiently under those circumstances.[/quote]
This is a really good argument. I like this alot. I really don’t have a lot to counter it. The way you explain it in the first 2 or 3 sentences is superb, and I never really thought of it like that. If you think of understeer as stability, you are right. I can see what you mean.
You don’t need to apologize for being adamant about something. You have been perfectly civil. I appreciate that alot. Far too many times internet conversations explode for no reason.
The youtube video was a good demonstration. I wish they would have used the same car for the tests but I understand why they didn’t. I just wish they would have to compare apples to apples. Even though it was the same car. It was a good demonstration, though. And the point is well taken.
I can tell you why I like my good tires on the drive wheels: I don’t like getting stuck. I don’t know why, I just don’t like being stuck/helpless.
There was a situation where turning myself with some directional instability might have saved my bacon. I was headed towards a 3 way T intersection, and at the top of the T there was a tree. I was coming up from the bottom of the T. Here’s a picture for reference:
As you can see by my brilliant artwork I pulled the handbrake and ended up very close to the tree but didn’t hit it. I probably would have been fine if I had smacked the ABS as hard as I could but what did I know I was 18. I still probably don’t know much. My reasoning is that my car is not as wide as it is long so having it be shorter when I was headed towards the tree on a 90 degree angle was better. Probably not true, though.
I suppose the argument is moot for me now as I drive a RWD vehicle and put the best tires on the rear. I’m going to have to get my wife a full set of winter tires instead of just two. Her life is worth that. She has a FWD vehicle..
Edit/Addition: I guess after thinking about it for a minute I just don’t like understeer. I like to go where I am turning. I guess oversteer makes me think I get the way I want to get going. I think I mentioned that in a post you didn’t directly reply to and not one you needed to pay a lot of attention to for that matter.
This video is a danger to public safety, and should be removed immediately. It is the industry standard to only put a pair of new tires on the rear axle for a reason, regardless of FWD/RWD/4WD. Understeer in a parking lot is not going to kill anyone. Perform this test at 70mph and see how it works out. If you never drive above 35mph and have a FWD car, by all means, replace the front tires. Otherwise, you are putting other peoples lives at stake, and that is not something to be taken lightly.
I understand many of you disagree with the video, but the evidence is clear. Many issues you’ve brought up in your posts about oversteer I’ve already answered to in my post about this topic on the first page of this thread. I would ask that you read that response as it directly addresses some of your concerns.
As for directional stability, many of you state that oversteer is dangerous. However, say hypothetically that a child sleds right out in the middle of the road in front of you. In that scenario with the old tires on the front you would not be able to steer away due to excessive understeer. The video clearly shows excessive understeer with the old tires on the front. Doesn’t matter if it’s excessive understeer or oversteer, both are dangerous.
In summary, get 4 new tires like I said in the video.
There’s one thing that will answer the question .
Eric needs to do another video on the wet not snow.
You will find that video is wrong[quote=”Hockeyclark” post=158817]This is a really good argument. I like this alot. I really don’t have a lot to counter it. The way you explain it in the first 2 or 3 sentences is superb, and I never really thought of it like that. If you think of understeer as stability, you are right. I can see what you mean.
You don’t need to apologize for being adamant about something. You have been perfectly civil. I appreciate that alot. Far too many times internet conversations explode for no reason.[/quote]
I’m genuinely relieved. I know I’m the “new kid on the block” and often that translates into not being taken seriously or being taken as a troll of some sort. English is my 3rd language so it sometimes makes it difficult to express my thoughts in a coherent fashion.[quote=”Hockeyclark” post=158817]I can tell you why I like my good tires on the drive wheels: I don’t like getting stuck. I don’t know why, I just don’t like being stuck/helpless.[/quote]
I don’t like that either. It’s annoying and can be embarrassing. It very rarely is actually dangerous though.[quote=”Hockeyclark” post=158817]As you can see by my brilliant artwork I pulled the handbrake and ended up very close to the tree but didn’t hit it.[/quote]
You got lucky. Had you approached the intersection just a tad faster, you would’ve hit the tree and hitting a tree sideways is never a good scenario. Glad you made it without hitting anything.[quote=”Hockeyclark” post=158817]I suppose the argument is moot for me now as I drive a RWD vehicle and put the best tires on the rear. I’m going to have to get my wife a full set of winter tires instead of just two. Her life is worth that. She has a FWD vehicle.[/quote]
Good for you. It’s always the best option to have proper winter tires. I’ll be bold and recommend Nokian Hakkapeliitta R tires or, if you can legally use studded tires, the Hakkapeliitta 8.[quote=”Hockeyclark” post=158817]Edit/Addition: I guess after thinking about it for a minute I just don’t like understeer. I like to go where I am turning. I guess oversteer makes me think I get the way I want to get going. I think I mentioned that in a post you didn’t directly reply to and not one you needed to pay a lot of attention to for that matter.[/quote]
I also hate understeer. It’s absolutely no fun. Being safe rarely is.[quote=”EricTheCarGuy” post=158843]However, say hypothetically that a child sleds right out in the middle of the road in front of you. In that scenario with the old tires on the front you would not be able to steer away due to excessive understeer.[/quote]
And with the worn tires on the back end, you’ll lose control and skid sideways into a tree/telephone pole/oncoming traffic etc. Take your pick.Like I said earlier on, there will always be situations where having better tires at the front will help you more than having better tires at the rear. You will be able to pull away easier, stop easier and steer better at low speeds. However, the real problems appear at highway speeds where losing control will quickly become a matter of life or death. When push comes to shove, the pros of having better tires at the rear will massively outweigh the cons. Massively.
All this of course only applies if there is a significant difference in tread between the two axles. In reality, having ie. 6mm of tread at the front and 5mm at the back is not going to cause an issue, specially in an fwd vehicle where the tires wear quicker in the front.
These are the Nokian Hakkapeliitta tires I have in my van:
And these are the Continental ContiIceContact my wife has in her car:
I loaned my car to my dad, but it has these Goodyear Ultra Grip Ice Artic tires:
And finally, our ’62 Rambler has these Cooper Trendsetters:
(it’s rarely, if ever, driven during winter…)
Mawerick wrote:
I’m genuinely relieved. I know I’m the “new kid on the block” and often that translates into not being taken seriously or being taken as a troll of some sort. English is my 3rd language so it sometimes makes it difficult to express my thoughts in a coherent fashion.
I wish I could speak more than one language. I couldn’t tell English wasn’t your first through text, anyway. Nice job.
Mawerick wrote:
You got lucky. Had you approached the intersection just a tad faster, you would’ve hit the tree and hitting a tree sideways is never a good scenario. Glad you made it without hitting anything.
I know.
[quote=”EricTheCarGuy” post=158843]However, say hypothetically that a child sleds right out in the middle of the road in front of you. In that scenario with the old tires on the front you would not be able to steer away due to excessive understeer.[/quote]
Mawerick replied:And with the worn tires on the back end, you’ll lose control and skid sideways into a tree/telephone pole/oncoming traffic etc. Take your pick.
I gotta be honest, I’ll take the pole/oncoming. Kid with no car to protect him vs people in a car with airbags and stuff is a no brainer.
Mawerick wrote:
Like I said earlier on, there will always be situations where having better tires at the front will help you more than having better tires at the rear. You will be able to pull away easier, stop easier and steer better at low speeds. However, the real problems appear at highway speeds where losing control will quickly become a matter of life or death. When push comes to shove, the pros of having better tires at the rear will massively outweigh the cons. Massively.
This is a distinction that I don’t think a lot of people are making. ETCG doesn’t have the space to make a high speed maneuver test. There are some little old ladies that will never go on the highway in their little town. So maybe they need the good tires on the front. I understand that when it comes down to it you need the good tires at the back at high speeds.
Also, you guys in Finland have some MEAN looking tires. Wow.
[quote=”Hockeyclark” post=158851]I gotta be honest, I’ll take the pole/oncoming. Kid with no car to protect him vs people in a car with airbags and stuff is a no brainer.[/quote]
That is true. One of the rare occasions where spinning out is the better option. For some reason I didn’t really think it completely through.[quote=”Hockeyclark” post=158851]Also, you guys in Finland have some MEAN looking tires. Wow.[/quote]
We do 😀Winter tires are mandatory here from december till march and you must have all four installed. You can use them whenever the weather conditions are bad enough, even during summer (never seen that happen though). Also, you can’t have studded and non-studded tires in the same vehicle + the amount of studs between the four tires must be within certain percentage. Minimum tread depth on winter tires is 3mm and on summer tires 1.6mm, although recommended figure is 4-5mm of tread.
[quote=”Mawerick” post=158860] Winter tires are mandatory here from december till march and you must have all four installed. You can use them whenever the weather conditions are bad enough, even during summer (never seen that happen though). Also, you can’t have studded and non-studded tires in the same vehicle + the amount of studs between the four tires must be within certain percentage. Minimum tread depth on winter tires is 3mm and on summer tires 1.6mm, although recommended figure is 4-5mm of tread.[/quote]
If the whole country of Finland applies these rules in their harsh winter conditions, it’s a pretty good indication of what’s right, don’t you think? The rule is that basically all 4 have to be very similar winter tires in good condition. Best advice of all. Eric has certainly already hit on that. B)
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