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i quit a minimum wage job, busted my ass through school, racked up a ton of financial aid debt, bought $2,000 tools just to work as an automotive technician… for minimum wage. 🙁
Here is my version of the flat rate system. I’ll charge you a “flat rate” of $50 to change that alternator. Will charge you what it cost me for parts. If I see anything that looks warranty, I will send you to the dealership.
I know that if I work hard, I can get this done in less than an hour. The real flat rate system seems to think this is a 2 1/2 hour job, and charges $80 an hour, and doubles the price on the parts.
No wonder they are only seeing warranty work. under my “flat rate” system I make $50 an hour, and everyones happy.
There is a compremise that should be mentioned here, I’ve put it on one of your videos before but I thought I would post it here too so it wont get burried as fast/easily. They can combine hourly and a flat-rate-like system. I was offered a job that would have payed me like $7.00 an hr plus a commission/bonus/tip/extra pay for everything I completed as based on the average time to complete the said job like a flat rate guy would.
All great suggestions, keep them coming. I figure if I keep throwing this topic on the wall eventually it will stick and perhaps we can effect some real change in the industry. It is difficult coming up with a system that is fair to the technician, the owner, and most important, the customer. I know there is a solution out there, it’s just a matter of finding it. Perhaps the seeds of that solution have already been planted on this forum. I appreciate everyones input as this is a topic that is close to my heart.
THATS HOW I GOT PAID FOR MANY(10) YEARS I MADE 10DOLLARS PER HOUR JUST FOR SHOWING UP AND PLUS HALF MY LABOR (NOT REALLY FLAT RATE) MORE LIKE COMMISSION (COMPANY WENT OUT OF BUS)
I DID VERY WELL TILL I MOVED TO THE DALLAS TX AREA WHERE I WAS ON 50/50 COMMISSION WITH ZERO BENEFITS(5 YEARS OF MICRO MANAGE BULLHOCKEY)
I NOW WORK FOR A NON PROFIT ORGANIZATION MAKING THE SAME MONEY AND DOING THE SAME SAID JOB AS STATED ABOVE BUT ON STRICTLY AN HOURLY WAGE PLUS OVERTIME, VACATION, SICK AND PERSONAL PTO, ALL HOLLIDAYS OFF
I HAVE MUCH MORE TIME TO SPEND WITH MY FAMILY AND SHOOT THE OCCASIONAL REPAIR VIDEO FOR MY MOWERMEDIC1 CHANNEL ON YOUTUBE I AM MUCH HAPPIER AWAY FROM THE DEALERSHIPThere’s something to be said about good benefits that’s for sure. Time with your family is worth it’s weight in gold as far as I’m concerned.
I am a DIYer so I have a different angle at the Flat Rate System. It is a system to charge you more time then it takes to do the job. If any other profession charged that way they would be in court in a minute – the problem is not that it is flat rate but shops advertise shop hour/rate and charge you inflated hours. I had a friend that had to replace a fuel pump and was told that tank had to be lowered and it would take many hours of shop time, he had the shop manuals and they had that as a correct procedure/time. I told him that it could be done from the top and looked on the internet and found that there was a Panel so he bought the pump and one evening the two of us removed the back seat to get to the panel and replaced the pump in a couple of hours. Total cost $200 dollars for the part. Not bad for 2 DIYers.
I just have a problem on the inflated times. Yes you will get a bad one but then they/shop will say it took X hours. That has stopped because the quotes that were given, they can only go over by a certain purcentage. Now do I beleave that the techs saw that money – I know better. Tipping the mechanic is probably a great idea, but I dont think I have to tip everyone that I do busyness with. I did take a case of beer to a shop that did save me a few bucks.
ERIC your talked about a TDI, there is a GTG Impex TDI Fest in Baltimore MD area May 18. Check website TDIClub for info. Great event for the TDI DiYer, not a lot of wrenching, to big to do alot of that.
Eric you are right that this effects other professions, seen it happen in a commision dentistry shop – not a court issue just state labor people. The one way to make this work is to have a base rate that satisfies the governments and commision on jobs completed. Like changing every system some will make out better and others will lose. The problem that has to be solved is to get the work into the shop and this comes down to trust and fairness.
Hey guys, I’ve got a slightly different perspective on this situation.
I am a service writer at a Mazda dealer with around 6 techs who are paid flat rate. I was previously a service writer at an independent dealer. I saw a HUGE change in the attitudes and productivity of technicians with my new job.
I had a good relationship with my co-workers at both locations, so what I’m about to say is nothing personal towards the guys, just what I observed.
At my previous job (Hourly techs), when I walked out to the shop with a repair order, I was bringing them work, not money. And they acted this way. Tech A wouldn’t want it, he’d say give it to Tech B. They would argue about who had to do it. When the work got started, if it was a dropoff, they had a tendency to milk the job for all it’s worth. A 3 hour timing belt job would have one of my mechanics out ALL DAY. They would do this selectively, so they could get away with it. These guys made good money, ranging from 17/hr to 24/hr.
At my current job (Flat rate techs), there is a drop box on the side of the shop foreman’s toolbox. I walk outside, drop a RO in there, say nothing, walk back up front. That vehicle will be getting pulled in within 5-10 minutes. Why? Because the technicians want to get paid. I’m bringing them money on those RO’s, not just work. I am lucky, and have some great techs that do quality work to the best of their abilities. No cutting corners where it counts, no wiping off oil filters, anything like that.
We have all full lifts, no quick lube bay or pit. Our techs do our oil changes. Oil changes pay .4hrs. It takes about ~30-45 min to get one done after racking and our ‘full inspection’. The techs inform me of work needed to the vehicle, brakes, tires, cabin filters, whatever, and I do my hardest to upsell those services so we can turn a .4hr job into a 1.5-2hr job and make everyone a bit of money.
Our techs work about 40hrs a week and flag, usually, 45-50hrs.
Flag rate, at our dealership, works in my opinion. It’s fair for all parties involved. Is it perfect? No, but in my eyes, it’s a better solution than straight hourly.
Whether or not flat rate is fair will depend on where you work and what you are working on. I’m a tech at an Audi dealership and lately flat rate has been fraying my nerves. Our vehicles have gone through platform updates starting in 2008 and that’s when things went very wrong for us. The new platforms are what i call the disposable razors of cars. They are made to barely get through the warranty period without failing and then become nightmares on wheels. Our labor rate is $175 an hour and parts are astronomically expensive so customers don’t want to keep these cars once the warranty expires. Most components are now large modules and are not serviceable. When something fails, we replace the whole thing. Customers just don’t want to pay for that and end up trading in the car. As a result of all of this, the vast majority of our work is warranty stuff.
Six years ago i could book 80 hours a week and now I’m happy if I break even. Labor rates have been cut across the board and diagnostic pay is a joke. We were always told that diagnostic techs are the most valuable and will receive the highest pay. That is just not true, or it’s not true anymore. As a diagnostic tech, i’m just the most exploited and underpaid for my efforts. We get paid 0.1 to road test a car whether it be a bad wheel bearing that will become apparent in 5min, or a rattle deep inside the dash that will consume half your day. Electrical diag has some potential to get you straight time, but the paperwork may consume more time than the repair itself.
Eric brought up a good point about factoring in everything that you are not being paid for. Disabled cars, paperwork, walking to and from the parts department, incorrect or damaged parts, parts department errors, waiting in the parts department, looking for shop equipment, waiting for approvals, inspecting vehicles, missing or damaged shop equipment, and all the hoop jumping that comes with the job. There is no runoff room. No room for a bad day or complications.
At my dealership, the documentation system is from the 70s. The days of ‘adjusted carburetor float, road tested, all ok’ are over. Some days i have to leave paperwork until next morning because my hand gets cramped from writing. The owner of the dealer chain insists on using ROs with 6, two inch wide lines per item. Sometimes i have to staple 3 additional blank ROs to the ticket just to write up a couple simple repairs. Audi is a bit gun shy since the unintended acceleration fiasco in the 80s so they have some seriously strict documentation guidelines. This stuff takes time to write up and implementing an electronic RO system reduce the time to write up a ticket to seconds. Manufacturers should be implementing requirements for streamlining these bottlenecks.
For some wishful thinking, manufacturers should require the dealers to pay the techs a fair wage. If you can’t pay your techs what they’re worth, than you shouldn’t be operating a dealership. A manufacturer should pride themselves not only in the product quality but also in the quality of life they are providing for their workers. Again, wishful thinking.
As cars change, the flat rate system will need to keep up. If it doesn’t, than no one in their right mind will want to work as a tech. The flat rate dealership tech will devolve into nothing more than what a fry cook is at burger joint. In the past it was something to worth studying for and working towards. Who will want to spend 25K on tech school, then another $25-50K on tools so they can work a job that pays worse than a janitor’s. I’m watching dealerships flood with untrained Pep Boys rejects.
I should stop before i talk myself into going back to school. It’s not all bad. Last week i booked 52 hours. Some dealers still pay high wages so if you don’t book 40, you will still get a nice check. Your skills and access to facilities reduces your transportation costs to just parts, fuel and insurance – this counters some of that lost time. Maybe you will never get rich, but you will never go hungry as long as your have your tools. After so many years, i have the qualifications and skills to move on to bigger and better things. Almost all exotic brands pay their techs hourly so that will be my next move. Once you survive flat rate, you can move up. Think of it as a learning experience.
Doctors, lawyers, policemen, firefighters, dentist, prostitutes, drug dealers and many others do not get paid flat rate… why is this special form of rape reserved only for the automotive technician?
perhaps there is an underlying reason for the bad reputation some shops get as rip-off artists; maybe it’s just a matter of survival.
I read a comment on your video…
“Flat Rate = Bad Back , Bad Knees , Bad Joints , Head Aches , Stress …….
Get a Good Hourly Fleet Job!
-Its time Mechanics get Treated and PAID like Professionals and NOT TREATED LIKE DOOR MATS!!!!”
What are some ideas of a “fleet job”?
I think I want to consider that.Like I’ve said in other topics…
Flat-rate is a joke, in my opinion.You have to deal with rust. You have to deal with things that broke because of the last person that worked on it. You have to deal with paperwork you don’t get paid for. Etc.
I think to make a good living off of flat-rate, you have to either be fed easy, high-paying jobs, or not be honest (recommend things the car doesn’t even need…if not yet, anyway).
You have to buy your own tools. I don’t mind that, but it only adds to it.
If you break something, YOU pay for it. And being as you’re in a hurry because it’s flat-rate, being as stuff is rusted, being as stuff doesn’t cooperate, you’re more likely to break stuff.
Whereas, you could be doing what my instructor’s son does (21-years-old making ~$70k a year in computer science) and not have to worry about breaking anything.
It’s a joke unless you know people…Without going into much thought and detail, I think a system like this could be picked at to be fair:
~$15/hr, and maybe $10-15/hr based on every hour of flat-rate you pull in.I don’t post here much anymore. In fact quite a few techs here are at odds with the community and some of Eric’s opinions and responses on this. I have started a technician Facebook group with many of the and other techs to discuss these topics, and it is going fairly well. From this I have learned what the issues are with the system. It’s that there are no labor protections for us and the dealerships and manufacturers know this an abuse it.
We need to effectively be able to address the following problems, on a legal scale and force the dealerships and manufacturers to follow the law and that is, they cannot require you to work for free. I am not referring to you taking an hour on a job that pays 0.5, that just means you need to pick up the pace or gain more experience, I mean:
– MPIs, the dealership agrees to do them for free, not us, if you say it takes 0.1 to do one and I have to do one every car, but you don’t pay me 0.1, you are breaking the law. Period. I don’t get paid for my MPIs. And I will be willing to lie and say yes it only takes 0.1, and last week I worked on 63 cars, that is 6.3 hours of work I did not get paid for. Illegal.
– Diagnostics. My dealership seems to think it is free. That it is fine to not pay me for work. Test drives, no monetary compensation, pulling a car in to find out why a TPMS light is on and having to just put air in the tires is work. It takes time. You want to cover it for the customer fine, but you have to pay me to do it. Not paying me is illegal. Case in point, I did a warrant cat last week (another BS thing I will address in a second) and the customer came back yesterday with a check engine light, blaming me. If it’s a comeback, than it is on me if I screwed up. Scan the code, large evap leak, check the gas cap and yep, customer didn’t tighten it down. I now make a habit of running time from the moment I pick up the RO and walk to the car. It took me 0.2 to scan that code and tighten the cap and clear the code. I didn’t get paid for that. It wasn’t my fault and the dealership doesn’t have the balls to charge the customer for their stupid mistake or the decency to step up and absolve the cost and pay me. Illegal.
– Warranty work. We need an actual avenue to prove the manufacturer is screwing us. Case in point, the warranty cat I did in the last bulletin. Subaru pays 0.9 to replace the cat and reprogram the ECM. You have to reuse the heat shields from the old cat, because Subaru is too cheap to provide new ones. 0.9 is a pipe dream, we will pretend in Texas that it is possible. In New England, every single one of those bolts is rotted. You have to cut them out, and all the spot welds some independent muffler shop put on them to stop the infamous Subaru heat shield rattle. You have to do so without damaging the shields because you have to reuse them. This takes me anywhere from 1.5 to 2.3 to do from start to finish. What is my legal avenue to force Subaru to pay me for these severe conditions? None.
– Requiring me to be there for 50 hours but taking home 30 hour paychecks. It should be required that I have to be paid minimum wage for every hour I am required to be there. In my state that is 7.75. So if I am there for 50 hours and flag 30, I should be paid my flag rate at 30 and 20 hours at minimum wage.
California state law says that if a tech is flat rate and required to provide his own tools, he must be paid 2x the state minimum wage. Why isn’t this a law everywhere?
Once we fix the above, flat rate complaints will go away. Until then, it sucks, pays horribly and makes this career a joke.
[quote=”IAD_TDI” post=58847]I am a DIYer so I have a different angle at the Flat Rate System. It is a system to charge you more time then it takes to do the job. If any other profession charged that way they would be in court in a minute – the problem is not that it is flat rate but shops advertise shop hour/rate and charge you inflated hours. I had a friend that had to replace a fuel pump and was told that tank had to be lowered and it would take many hours of shop time, he had the shop manuals and they had that as a correct procedure/time. I told him that it could be done from the top and looked on the internet and found that there was a Panel so he bought the pump and one evening the two of us removed the back seat to get to the panel and replaced the pump in a couple of hours. Total cost $200 dollars for the part. Not bad for 2 DIYers.
I just have a problem on the inflated times. Yes you will get a bad one but then they/shop will say it took X hours. That has stopped because the quotes that were given, they can only go over by a certain purcentage. Now do I beleave that the techs saw that money – I know better. Tipping the mechanic is probably a great idea, but I dont think I have to tip everyone that I do busyness with. I did take a case of beer to a shop that did save me a few bucks.
ERIC your talked about a TDI, there is a GTG Impex TDI Fest in Baltimore MD area May 18. Check website TDIClub for info. Great event for the TDI DiYer, not a lot of wrenching, to big to do alot of that.
Eric you are right that this effects other professions, seen it happen in a commision dentistry shop – not a court issue just state labor people. The one way to make this work is to have a base rate that satisfies the governments and commision on jobs completed. Like changing every system some will make out better and others will lose. The problem that has to be solved is to get the work into the shop and this comes down to trust and fairness.[/quote]
I want to quote this post, because this post is the exact problem. You are so completely wrong it is not funny.
Book times are calculated as how long it will take 1 person, not a group of people, not 2, to do the job with hand tools. You are basically saying to punish the guy who bought bigger and better tools to do the job faster, to in turn increase his efficiency and paycheck. If people had it your way, you would all be DIYers, because no one would be a tech, that or, everyone would just use hand tools and get the maximum pay. How in your right mind you think it is fair that the guy with little investment in tools should be paid more because he takes longer, is beyond me.
In reply to SpawnedX – you are so dead on. Each one of those points strikes a nerve and you are absolutely right on each one.
My dealer has been tormented by secret shoppers, and they are easy to spot but they use some shady tactics. Passing one of those is not easy and you have to be 100%. We suffered a lot as a result. The techs always get the s****y end of the stick.n We are now required to do complete MPIs on every vehicle that comes through a shop. I have been doing this for many years, and a complete MPI can take anywhere from .3 to over an hour. They also expect us to quote for parts and labor when we find something wrong with a car – that means diag. A loud death-clunk from the suspension, or a DTC stored in one of the countless systems. They want it quoted for, and don’t expect us to charge diag time since it’s an ‘upsell’. If you get an older car with a lot of issues, the time spent doing the inspection, listing parts, looking up labor times, and waiting at the parts department can take over two hours – all unpaid.
Lately the hours clocked and the hours booked for the shop have not been equal. We have to work about 50 hours to book 30. My dealer is in Los Angeles, and in light of what happened at Mercedes of DTLA, we are now required to take hour long lunch breaks, and can’t work more than 8 hours a day. At 5 we are all rushed out of the shop. No one stays late unless it’s a waiter. I’m really glad that the techs at MB of DTLA got what they fought for, but it seriously hurt some of us. Our paychecks took a big blow. What is going to happen to the quality of work coming out of the shops now that everyone has to rush much more than before is a whole additional problem.
Things are getting bad out there.
[quote=”SpawnedX” post=59971]I don’t post here much anymore. In fact quite a few techs here are at odds with the community and some of Eric’s opinions and responses on this. I have started a technician Facebook group with many of the and other techs to discuss these topics, and it is going fairly well. From this I have learned what the issues are with the system. It’s that there are no labor protections for us and the dealerships and manufacturers know this an abuse it.
We need to effectively be able to address the following problems, on a legal scale and force the dealerships and manufacturers to follow the law and that is, they cannot require you to work for free. I am not referring to you taking an hour on a job that pays 0.5, that just means you need to pick up the pace or gain more experience, I mean:
– MPIs, the dealership agrees to do them for free, not us, if you say it takes 0.1 to do one and I have to do one every car, but you don’t pay me 0.1, you are breaking the law. Period. I don’t get paid for my MPIs. And I will be willing to lie and say yes it only takes 0.1, and last week I worked on 63 cars, that is 6.3 hours of work I did not get paid for. Illegal.
– Diagnostics. My dealership seems to think it is free. That it is fine to not pay me for work. Test drives, no monetary compensation, pulling a car in to find out why a TPMS light is on and having to just put air in the tires is work. It takes time. You want to cover it for the customer fine, but you have to pay me to do it. Not paying me is illegal. Case in point, I did a warrant cat last week (another BS thing I will address in a second) and the customer came back yesterday with a check engine light, blaming me. If it’s a comeback, than it is on me if I screwed up. Scan the code, large evap leak, check the gas cap and yep, customer didn’t tighten it down. I now make a habit of running time from the moment I pick up the RO and walk to the car. It took me 0.2 to scan that code and tighten the cap and clear the code. I didn’t get paid for that. It wasn’t my fault and the dealership doesn’t have the balls to charge the customer for their stupid mistake or the decency to step up and absolve the cost and pay me. Illegal.
– Warranty work. We need an actual avenue to prove the manufacturer is screwing us. Case in point, the warranty cat I did in the last bulletin. Subaru pays 0.9 to replace the cat and reprogram the ECM. You have to reuse the heat shields from the old cat, because Subaru is too cheap to provide new ones. 0.9 is a pipe dream, we will pretend in Texas that it is possible. In New England, every single one of those bolts is rotted. You have to cut them out, and all the spot welds some independent muffler shop put on them to stop the infamous Subaru heat shield rattle. You have to do so without damaging the shields because you have to reuse them. This takes me anywhere from 1.5 to 2.3 to do from start to finish. What is my legal avenue to force Subaru to pay me for these severe conditions? None.
– Requiring me to be there for 50 hours but taking home 30 hour paychecks. It should be required that I have to be paid minimum wage for every hour I am required to be there. In my state that is 7.75. So if I am there for 50 hours and flag 30, I should be paid my flag rate at 30 and 20 hours at minimum wage.
California state law says that if a tech is flat rate and required to provide his own tools, he must be paid 2x the state minimum wage. Why isn’t this a law everywhere?
Once we fix the above, flat rate complaints will go away. Until then, it sucks, pays horribly and makes this career a joke.[/quote]
This is EXACTLY the reason I made this video. Well put. It would be great if you could post a link to the FB group you spoke of so that people can check it out. BTW I was thinking of you when I made this video as I remember a pervious discussion that we had on the topic.
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