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I have a decision to make and I do not feel equipped with the experience to make it. I was hoping that I might get some valuable input here from experts, or people who have been through similar things.
My car is a 2001 VW Golf 1.8T with 285,000 KM on it named Jenny. I am in Nova Scotia and I bought her a year and a half ago… just before what I believe are the two worst winters on record for the region. I will be moving to Ontario at the end of the month where I will have to get her reinspected for registration.
About a month ago I found an area where the underseal had gone all soft, so I brought it in to a local auto body place and asked their opinion. The guy said the thing to do was remove and reapply the seal and quoted me 150 bucks. Unfortunately they were booked until after I left, so I went to the city and found a shop that formerly did a great deal of Warranty work for the nearby VW dealership. He told me that when the underseal falls away like that it means the panel is rusted through (he did actually feel around, he didn’t just take my word for it). He said I would need a new sheet of metal done up and welded in, and that the total cost would be around a grand. I believe him, because they are booked through till July as well so there is no chance of him getting my buisness. We discussed that there are very few body shops around and that they are all very busy because of this horrible winter (It snowed last week…).
Oddball in the mix: my friend has been employed for the last year developing rust convertors targeted at automotive applications. While he is very smart and fastidious in his work, he doesn’t actually know a great deal about cars or underseal. He offered to do up and apply a batch of the product that he has been working on for the past few months which is intended to deal with exactly this kind of rust. After going through that process, I would track down somebody to apply a new coat of underseal to the affected area (you may have noticed, I am not comfortable doing body work).
The crossroads I am at is as follows. It is entirely possible that a mechanic who does my safety won’t even notice that this panel is rusted, or that it is not yet at a state where it doesn’t pass. Of course the problem doesn’t go away, but realistically rust will be what finally kills this car and when you patch something like that it will still remain suspect. If I allow my friend to use his gel, that will mean removing the existing seal and exposing the panel. If it doesn’t work, or makes things worse, that fact will become immediately obvious to somebody doing the inspection. If it does work, I won’t have to worry anymore.
I recorded some video of the affected area. I really appreciate any thoughts you might be able to provide me.
Thanks
nintendoeatshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0os70J4784&feature=youtu.be
EDIT: By the way, that hole is supposed to be there. I think it may have had a plug in it originally.
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The only way to kill rust(if rotted through) is to cut out or grind down to good metal and weld in a patch of new metal. I am going through this on my 41 year old truck now. The floorpanels had a few holes, not super bad but needed addressing. Some other metal was in a little bit of rough shape, so new metal is going in. These trucks had very little rust protection from the factory, so time takes it’s toll.
Point being, rust will come back if you don’t sand and treat. If there is a hole(which in your case there is) it MUST be cut out. If you just apply undercoating(underseal) it will come back through with a vengeance. I am not familiar with Canada’s laws on safety inspection and where I am, there are no inspections. Rust is like cancer, it must be removed in it’s entirety or it will come back.I am going to say the probability of a Canadian mechanic spotting it is a lot higher then someone in the states. The reason behind that is their system of education for mechanics tends to be more intensive and there is also normally apprenticeship involved.
Rust is like cancer. If you do not get rid of all of it; it will just spread. You can grind to clean metal in some cases others where there is a hole it normally means its going to be rusted through at least 2inches around bigger then it.
What happens is once the oxygen/water gets underneath the paint the paint holds the oxygen/water against the metal. Rust creates bumps or imperfections by the iron being drawn out of the metal. This creates voids between the paint and metal for water and air to get in. Once rust has started it self perpetuates because it is more porous which allows oxygen and moisture to to remain in it. Once painted over there is enough to grow enough moisture or oxygen to rupture the new paint allowing once again water and oxygen.
My suggestion is to get it fixed and get it fixed right if you plan to keep the car. though being a VW owner myself with 242,000 miles on it trouble is probably brewing and that 1k would be better used for a decent used car. Though it is up to you because the devil you know is better then the devil you don’t.
[quote=”MDK22″ post=135687]
My suggestion is to get it fixed and get it fixed right if you plan to keep the car. though being a VW owner myself with 242,000 miles on it trouble is probably brewing and that 1k would be better used for a decent used car. Though it is up to you because the devil you know is better then the devil you don’t.[/quote]I would very much like to get it repaired correctly. I share the sentiment that the devil you know is better, and given that I have learned my vehicle repair skills on doing quite a few things to this car I know it quite well. I think it may need new rear calipers sometime in the near future, but other than that quite a bit of it is new parts and the drivetrain itself is known to be hardy (other than the dif blowing every now and again, but I expect that would have happened by now as it seems to be due to an underdesigned part not present in all 02Js). Additionally, I monitor the OBD data constantly and it says good things. Disasters happen unexpectedly, especially to VWs, but right now Jenny is in much better shape than when I bought her aside from this patch.
The real problem is that I don’t see how I can get it repaired correctly before inspection. I suppose I could beg some body shop in London to do it before my NS registration runs out.
Oh, you may not have seen my edit. The hole in that video is part of the design. I believe it had a plug in it from the factory. The rust has not actually created a hole at this time. The Ontario regulations say the inspection will fail if either of the following are found to be the case:
h) the frame or any structural unitized member is broken or cracked;
has any loose or missing connecting fasteners; or is perforated with
rust that could downgrade the safety of the vehicle; or
i) The under-body, including the trunk floor pan, is perforated by rust
or damaged or has any opening that may allow entry of exhaust gas.[quote=”nintendoeats” post=135690]Oh, you may not have seen my edit. The hole in that video is part of the design. I believe it had a plug in it from the factory. The rust has not actually created a hole at this time. The Ontario regulations say the inspection will fail if either of the following are found to be the case:
h) the frame or any structural unitized member is broken or cracked;
has any loose or missing connecting fasteners; or is perforated with
rust that could downgrade the safety of the vehicle; or
i) The under-body, including the trunk floor pan, is perforated by rust
or damaged or has any opening that may allow entry of exhaust gas.[/quote]Yes that hole is supposed to be there, but the metal at the beginning of the video that you were pushing with your finger looked..flimsy to say the least. What I would do is take a punch and a hammer and tap all along that panel. If it punches through, there is a major issue that will need to be addressed.
Perforation means that there is a hole in a member or panel.
I am fairly confident that were I to do that a hole would be created. I don’t doubt that, sooner rather than later, I am going to have to get it dealt with in some fashion.
[quote=”nintendoeats” post=135696]I am fairly confident that were I to do that a hole would be created. I don’t doubt that, sooner rather than later I am going to have to get it dealt with in some fashion.[/quote] So the goal here at the moment is to pass inspection? The rocker panel is considered a structural member of a unibody car. You can try and hide it, but I won’t endorse that. Eventually, that rot will spread and cause major issues. I suggest getting it fixed. Perhaps you can ask the inspector to give you a probationary sticker or something like that in the meantime. One with a time constraint so that you have more time to get the work done. Just a thought.
[quote=”Chevyman21″ post=135697]So the goal here at the moment is to pass inspection? The rocker panel is considered a structural member of a unibody car. You can try and hide it, but I won’t endorse that. Eventually, that rot will spread and cause major issues. I suggest getting it fixed. Perhaps you can ask the inspector to give you a probationary sticker or something like that in the meantime. One with a time constraint so that you have more time to get the work done. Just a thought.[/quote]
That is precisely the goal. I’ll get it resolved, it’s just a matter of being able to use the car until I do.
I am hoping against hope that is an option. Unfortunately Ontario has repealed biannual safety inspections and now only requires them for a few scenarios including registering an out of province car. In NS we have such probationary safety inspections, but I haven’t found any record of such a thing in Ontario and it seems unlikely that they have them for a one-time inspection.
[quote=”nintendoeats” post=135698][quote=”Chevyman21″ post=135697]So the goal here at the moment is to pass inspection? The rocker panel is considered a structural member of a unibody car. You can try and hide it, but I won’t endorse that. Eventually, that rot will spread and cause major issues. I suggest getting it fixed. Perhaps you can ask the inspector to give you a probationary sticker or something like that in the meantime. One with a time constraint so that you have more time to get the work done. Just a thought.[/quote]
That is precisely the goal. I’ll get it resolved, it’s just a matter of being able to use the car until I do.
I am hoping against hope that is an option. Unfortunately Ontario has repealed biannual safety inspections and now only requires them for a few scenarios including registering an out of province car. In NS we have such probationary safety inspections, but I haven’t found any record of such a thing in Ontario and it seems unlikely that they have them for a one-time inspection.[/quote] Let me see if I’m understanding this correctly. In your area(Ontario), they only require an initial inspection and after that they don’t require one ever again for the same car?
In the area I’m moving to, it need only pass safety in order to be registered. If I were to register it, wait a month and then sell it to somebody it would then need to be inspected again so that they could register it under their name. Other than that, they have bi-annual emissions inspections (they pretty much just check that your engine isn’t throwing any codes and the CC is showing normal values in OBD) but no further safety inspections. I am actually made quite uncomfortable by this because I want to know that the grandmother in the Kia Magentis behind me has functional brakes, but there it is.
[quote=”nintendoeats” post=135701]In the area I’m moving to, it need only pass safety in order to be registered. If I were to register it, wait a month and then sell it to somebody it would then need to be inspected again so that they could register it under their name. Other than that, they have bi-annual emissions inspections (they pretty much just check that your engine isn’t throwing any codes and the CC is showing normal values in OBD) but no further safety inspections. I am actually made quite uncomfortable by this because I want to know that the grandmother in the Kia Magentis behind me has functional brakes, but there it is.[/quote] Gotcha, well this is a tough one. As MDK22 said, I’m sure they are pretty thorough in their inspections especially since it’s only done once. Giving advice on this one is very difficult because it has to do with legality in your country. If the inspector happens to notice it, ask what your options are. I’m sorry I can’t be of much more help.
That’s ok, I would rather be advised by somebody with a platonic acceptance of their own limits than somebody who thinks they know the solutions to everything. It seems based on what you are saying (and I sort of expected this) that I am going to have to sweet talk a mechanic. The one thing I have going for me on that front is that I am near the end of a huge post-winter maintenance and cleaning list, and the effort is extremely obvious. I may resort to saying “look, I’ve done all this effort to make this thing look and drive like new, do you think I’m going to let it rot to pieces?”
That…may not work. We’ll just have to see. I dislike this uncertainty, but such is life.
Thanks!
[quote=”nintendoeats” post=135703]That’s ok, I would rather be advised by somebody with a platonic acceptance of their own limits than somebody who thinks they know the solutions to everything. It seems based on what you are saying (and I sort of expected this) that I am going to have to sweet talk a mechanic. The one thing I have going for me on that front is that I am near the end of a huge post-winter maintenance and cleaning list, and the effort is extremely obvious. I may resort to saying “look, I’ve done all this effort to make this thing look and drive like new, do you think I’m going to let it rot to pieces?”
That…may not work. We’ll just have to see. I dislike this uncertainty, but such is life.
Thanks![/quote] Your welcome, keep us posted on how it goes!
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