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Looking for some advice from a Honda tech on this one. Seems to be consistent with the Honda J series engines. I couldn’t locate a TSB for this specific issue.
Here is the sound.
Seems to be on Accords, Pilots, Ridgelines, and Odysseys.
Anyway, I have the tick on my RL and several members on ridgelineownersclub.com have the same issue and we are all trying different things to try to solve it.
I’ve replaced my TB HD tensioner as well as set valve lash to spec. Truck has 180k miles and the TB is only aobut 50k miles old.
Several videos exist on youtube for this same tick and it seems that when folks go to the Dealership they are told it’s piston slap…. or that it’s normal…
Just looking to help shed some light on this issue for several people.
I’ve ruled out already that the noise is not coming from anything on the Serp belt, it’s not the spark plugs or the rocker shaft bridge either.
ETCG is the only subscription that I have on YouTube and often I find myself watching anything just to learn more random stuff.
Thanks for reading -Stay Dirty
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It’s a little hard to tell from the video but it sounds like the noise changes with load. A noisy valve would not do that. You might try doing a power balance test on the cylinders you have access to, to see if the noise changes on any cylinders. If the noise changes or is less then you could have piston or wrist pin problems.
Bill, that is a good idea and not something I’ve done yet. I actually ran across Eric’s video of him doing this just the other day but have yet to watch it. I guess a question I have to this (and he might answer it in his video is). I’ve done this on conventional engines (single coil) and if I remember correcly from tech school, I need to displace the spark in order to avoid destroying the coil. I’m thinking this isn’t the same for the coil over plug setup but other than unplugging each coil one at a time, I don’t have a way to disable them through the ECM.
I’ll have to look into that more, but thanks for the idea, it’s something else to check off the list.
I might add, the sound comes within a couple seconds of startup and seems to always exist, though its harder to notice at higher RPM’s due to other obvious engine noises. It also seems to lesson with the AC compressor kicking on (which adds load). I’ve pulled the serpantine belt when the engine was cold and ran it for a few seconds, the sound was still there, so I know for sure it isn’t the compressor or any of the pulleys. Something I plan to check in the future is possibly a TB idler that is going bad or possibly some interferance with the flexplate.
So you may be onto something there, just wish I had done this before the valve-job, so that I could have paid special attention to one specific side if this test pointed to it.
Here is yet another video of this same exact noise.
Thanks guys, -Stay Dirty
That sounds like top end to me. If you brought it to me, I’d be in there checking the valve adjustment. I know you say they’ve already checked it, but given the difficulty of that job, you need an experienced tech to perform it. If not, it won’t be successful.
I would also be checking the timing belt tension. The J series of that vintage had a couple of hydraulic tensioners that were used. One tended to leak and cause the belt to get loose, sometimes jumping time. I’ve seen loose timing belts cause valve noise like this in the past.
Given that the valve covers would be off and most of the stuff would be out of the way, checking timing belt tension would not be that difficult while checking valve clearance.
Lastly, it’s VERY important that you use the correct viscosity oil as called for by Honda. If not, premature wear of the top end can occur.
More info on finding and fixing noises here.
http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/diagnosing-noises-in-your-car
Good luck and keep us posted.
Thanks Eric for responding, as well as Bill who responded earlier.
The previous owner keept really good, detailed notes of all maitenance he had done on this truck, I mean… wow, he went overboard. I noticed however that he only mentions changing just the timing belt and didn’t list doing the valve adjustment or replacing the waterpump etc (which seems to go hand in hand).
Some things to consider:
I have already replaced the hydrolic tensioner, because I’ve read that they can go bad, I managed to replace it without removing the bottom cover (couldnt get the crank pully off with my crappy impact)… this took forever but with the help of a ziptie, I managed. The old tensioner was leaking and at the time, I “KNEW” that I had fixed the click, but alas, I didn’t. With the tensioner being bad, it could have very well allowed the belt to jumped a tooth or two on the one of the cam sprockets and thats what we are hearing.
Next, I bought this from a Toyota dealer, and they had just changed the oil…Conventional 5w-30. Honda calls for 5w-20, so I will be upgrading to the correct Mobil 1 full synthetic tonight.
As far as the valve adjustment goes, would you say that these valves make noise when they are too loose or too tight? I found that #1 exhaust had less than .0205 clerance on both valves.
Thanks for posting those two videos, I’ve watched it a half dozen times in the past several weeks, I also watched the video Bill recommended and will be doing that job tonight.
I really appreciate what you do for us little guys out here trying to save a buck, I have an education in automotive maitenance technology but I only work on cars pro-bono for ppl who need help, so never any real dealership work. You take a lot of the unknown/fear out of doing things.
Thanks -Stay Dirty
As long as the spark is jumping to ground you shouldn’t have a problem. It’s when the spark has no place to go is when you can cause a problem.
You can use a 12v test light for that.
I’ve seen Honda K series do the same thing, coming from loose valve clearances. Unfortunately they are much easier to get to than the J. I would love to hear the final answer to solving this because I heard similar noises on truck that I almost purchased.
Switching to the correct oil is a VERY good move. Good call on that one as the wrong oil can cause increased wear, particularly in the top end of the engine. Conventional or synthetic really doesn’t matter, the viscosity does however.
Next time you need to take the crank pulley off you’ll need this.
http://www.jbtoolsales.com/performance-tool-w83168-acura-crank-pulley-tool/#oid=1002_1
Also, you might find this helpful.
The valve clearance doesn’t sound that far off, but it’s very difficult to get an accurate measurement of where the valves actually are. You normally just get in there and adjust them.
J series valve adjustments are not common and are not a part of a timing belt service. In fact, it would be better that those not familiar with the process not attempt it. I’ve seen more issues caused by people attempting to do a valve adjustment than never adjusting them at all. The information in the video can get someone by, but it’s going to take a bit of experience in order to master the technique.
Keep us posted.
Hey Guys, giving an update and staying dirty here.
So I changed the oil and did the power and balance test, I noticed that the engine did stumble a little as I unplugged each individual coil and then it recovered as I plugged it back in. No noticible difference in the ticking sound unfortunately.
The oil change was good just for piece of mind, I didn’t think it was causing the ticking but I did want to make sure it was running with the right fluids.
It’s been a long and busy last several days so I have no real updates after that. I plan to pull the truck into the garage Sat night and dissassemble the upper part of the engine and let it sit over night. Sunday morning I will hopefully perform another valve job.
That Honda crank pully holder is helpful, I just rent mine at the local O’reillys since my Autozone doesnt have it.
Kinda off topic here but kind of the same. I did an oil change on my mother-n-laws 2006 Saturn Vue this past weekend…. since it also has the same J35 engine in it as my RL, I decided to do her a solid and check the timing belt (she’s clueless to car maitenance). The SUV has 143k miles on it and the belt is missing a chip of rubber out of it… The belt is on it’s last life and so I will be changing that belt this weekend (Eric, already reviewed the video of that, thanks). Her engine doesnt make the ticking noise so I almost wanna pull the cover on it while it’s cool and see what her specs are at and just mirror them. …it’s an idea at least.
Buying a larger set of offset feeler guages at Napa this weekend, I only have 11 blades on my current setup and I’d like to have it a tad bit more accurate before I break down the top-end yet again.
The RL has “felt” solid since day 1 and I’ve had no concern about it’s ability to run. I had a parking attendant ask me the other day if my truck had a diesel :unsure: because of the tick…
I’ll let you guys know what I find, lets hope this is the last valve adjustment I do.
-Stay Dirty
Proceed with caution with checking the valves, or doing an adjustment. If you get it wrong, it’s a LOT of work to make it right again. What you’ll likely find is that the exhaust valves are a little tight, and the intakes are a little loose. This is normal and I wouldn’t worry about it.
As stated, the first thing I would check for your engine noise is the valve clearance, ignoring the fact that it’s already been adjusted, as I said, not everyone is qualified to do valve adjustments on Hondas. If that was good I’d check the timing belt tension. If that was also good then the problem would be in the engine somewhere. Not sure where, but that’s the conclusion I would draw form that evidence. At that point it would be time to start tearing things out and checking clearances.
Keep us posted.
Here is an update:
This weekend I performed two more valve adjustments and have (in my mind) ruled out that it is a valve lash adjustment issue.
I spent well over 12 hours under the hood this weekend, first after letting the truck sit overnight, I adjusted the valves all to the lower range of the spec. For those of you who do not know, the valve lash for the intake side is .22mm + or – .02mm for the exhaust side it is .30mm + or – .02mm.
So with knowing this, and knowing that Honda has okayed this as an acceptable range, I set the intakes all to .20mm and the exhaust to .28mm (or their nearest feeler guage width). After I did that, the engine idled like crap, I could tell that I was getting a little valve float and it was a lot rougher than normal. I still heard the “clicking” sound that we are concerned about… the sound was no different than it ever is.
After waiting for about 8 more hours with and with a large fan on the engine, I felt that the block had cooled back down below 100 degrees and so later that night, I adjusted all the valves back to their “ideal” range, which is in the middle of the recommendation.
I’m moving onto other ideas now, if it is the valves, it’s not the lash… to say the least.
Some things that I want to bring up and some things I am going to check next:
I, as well as others, have noticed that the sound does change at idle when the AC compressor kicks on. At first, I assumed this was due to a load being applied to the engine, the tick does increase in speed when you push the gas and it almost seems to go away with higher RPM’s, though I just figured that was due to other engine noises muffling it. Either way there is a load being applied to the engine, so why is the load applied with the AC yeilding a different outcome than the load being applied through the gas pedal?
I might look more into this AC compressor deal though, I have already removed the accessory belt for a short time and ran the engine, and the noise was there in it’s normal form, so I know it’s not anything to do with the belt or the AC clutch or anything actually attached to that belt.
Some things I still want to check would be everything attached to the timing belt, as well as the flex-plate (flywheel to some of you).
I also double checked the cam sprokets at #1tdc and they are both lined up properly and the belt seems to be nice and tight.
I’m going to be spending ore time this week just listening to the engine idle and probing it with my scope, right now the noise is pretty well heard no matter where I put the probe. I’ll clarify that more as I go.
Feel free to keep throwing ideals my way, I’m willing to spend time under the hood just as long as my wife allows it. 👿
-Stay Dirty
I did warn you about those valve adjustments. Glad you got it running again though.
As for the AC you can easily eliminate that by removing the drive belt and starting the engine. If the noise goes away, you can conclude that it could indeed be the result of the AC compressor. Also, I would once again stress that it’s worth checking the timing belt tension. If it’s loose it can cause engine noise.
Alright, so here’s the verdict, sorry I’ve been away so long. *Drum roll please*
…………….It is indeed Piston Slap.
Two reasons I believe this.
1. Although I did not take my engine apart, another member of the Ridgeline club did and they found scoring on the piston skirts of the front bank cylinders as well as the cylinder walls.
2. I managed to borrow a bores scope after this news and found that my front bank cylinder walls do not match my rear and the front, though hard to tell, does appear to have some scoring. I did not pull the pan an attempt to view any of the piston skirts at BDC. (not sure if I could see them anyway).
So this does answer a few questions. Why did my ticking noise seem to get worse with one of my valve adjustments? Easy, because I also changed the oil that that time that the dealership put in it and replaced it with factory spec 5w-20. I didn’t take this into consideration though but the stealership did have 5w-30 in there… obviously to help mask the noise so they could sell it… sound about right?
So the more I read on this now I realize that the engine will still probably run strong for many many more miles, what I’d like to do is soften the noise if I can. I’ve read that oils with high moly content help that… I’d like to stick with 5w-20 if I can.
My next oil change is coming up soon and I think I will try to use some type of oil additive to thicken it up a little before I dump it… just to see if I can get any results.
Does anybody have a recommendation for an additive? Currently the 350 in my Buick GS (72) takes an STP oil additive so that I can get more ZDP in my oil… that stuff is like molasses… I thought about giving it a try.
Welp, anyway, thought I’d drop back in and give an outcome since so many folks forget to do that. I might start planning a piston swap for the truck sometime next year but for now I just have to do my best to live with it all.
Thanks and Stay Dirty
As for the valve adjustments you have to take into account your inexperience doing that job. It may have nothing to do with oil. As for the oil. You might consider a high mileage oil, but do NOT put a thicken agent into the oil. I covered that in this video.
It’s easy to determine piston slap. All you need to do is disable the ignition to each cylinder individually. If the noise goes away when you disable the ignition to a particular cylinder you not only have found the offending cylinder, but you’ve also determined that you have loose parts in that piston causing the noise.
Scoring is common on the front bank of that engine. It’s mostly due to extended oil changes in my experience. I would not say that is what is responsible.
In summary, stick with the recommended oil and know that the issue is likely not debilitating and you should probably leave well enough alone before you get in over your head. Probably the only way to find the cause of the noise at this point is to disassemble the engine and measure all the clearances in the engine to find the ones that are excessive. That underrating would likely be more trouble than it’s worth.
Lastly, consider checking the oil pressure. If you find you have a fluctuating needle, this might indicated increased clearances in the bottom end parts. Here’s a couple of videos to help you understand that.
Good luck an as always keep us posted.
So, just for an update. It’s been 4 months now and I have done a little work on the truck. Two weeks ago out of caution, I changed out the timing belt and all the associated components as well as the water pump (it still had 50k miles left on it) I did this because I was unsure the PO had changed more than just the belt. The truck has no noticeable change in the ticking sound. I have yet to check the oil pressure as indicated above but as long as this weekends plans stay the same, I plan to do a compression test and also check the oil pressure.
I changed the oil this past weekend and thought I’d shoot a video of the engine and the sound. Notice near the end that the tick goes away (briefly). I have associated this interruption with the cycling of the AC compressor…..though I have not been able to blame the noise on the AC. The engine makes the same exact tick with the accessory belt removed so that leaves me to believe it can’t be the AC.
If you have any suggestions, please let me know. I’m not giving up on this yet.
Stay Dirty
So, this weekend I did a little work on the truck and now I have a manual oil pressure gauge installed. Haynes manual calls for 20 psi at warm idle and 70psi at 3k rpm
My results are as follows:
16 psi at idle
45 psi at 2k rpm (commute speeds of 65 mph)
80 psi at 3k rpm (getting into vtec lightly)With the current high miles I have on this truck, I’m not concerned about these findings. The gauge needled traveled smoothly between points and there was no jumping, (which could indicate worn crank bearing/s).
I then pulled all the plugs:
They all looked the same, which is good in most cases. I did replace them though, just because I had them out.
I then scoped all of the cylinders:
#1
#1 valves
I made sure all the valves moved smoothly all together while I rotated the crank, I was able to view this through each cylinder with my bore scope.
#2
#2 cylinder (scoring)
#3
#3 valves
#4 (reported as a trouble cylinder in some RL’s)
#5
#5 Cylinder wall
#6
#6 second angle
I’m no engine builder so I can’t exactly look at all of these images and tell you what they mean. I can tell you that it looks to me that there is no substantial impact between valve and piston going on. Being able to view the valve movement inside the head also let me know there are no broken springs or bent valves. This test has put to rest a few theories, which are just more things to mark off the list.
The next test I did Sunday night was a compression test, for those of you who have a 2005 or later Honda, the Haynes manual says to disable the fuel solenoid by removing a certain relay (then it points to a picture of one under the steering wheel). I pulled the one it showed, it’s by the OBDII connector just right of the steering shaft… no luck (started right up), or at least I didn’t wait long enough to let the fuel run out, the book says it’s supposed to defeat a start immediately. So I went ahead and followed the guidelines for 2004 and earlier, which was to pull #19 fuse (fuel pump) in the driver side kick panel box. Worked right away.
#1 cylinder gave me a reading of 180 psi at 6 cycles (dry) and the first cycle was 100 psi.
#2 cylinder test broke my compression gauge (rental from Auto Zone). So I will have to conclude these results at a later time.
So, as you can see I have compiled a bit of information here on the internal health of my engine, so far so good… no blinding answers found.
As always, I will keep you updated.
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