Honda Civic Manual Transmission

[Brian McIntyre]

Hello, I have just changed cars from:

a Ford Focus MKI 2000 – 1.8 Petrol – 5 Speed Manual Transmission 66,000 miles, to:

a Honda Civic Type S 2009 – 2.2 I-CDTI – 6 Speed Manual Transmission 76,000 miles with apparent full service history, most recent within last 2000 miles/6 months.

I really like the car but the jerkiness of gear changes from 1st to 2nd particularly, and sometimes 2nd to 3rd is really taking a shine off it for me. I wasn’t sure what to expect going from a petrol engine to a diesel engine (knowing a petrol engine is more “refined”) I thought I just needed to get used to the car, couple of weeks later no matter how hard I try, I find it difficult to shift those gears smoothly, and always feel the car judder coming back off the clutch going into 2nd especially. Worth noting that shifts from 3rd to 4th, 4th to 5th and 5th to 6 feel fine and downward shifts seem fine. It is mainly 1st to 2nd.

It doesn’t feel like anything is wrong with the box or the clutch mind you.

Having looked into Eric’s video’s and hearing his experience my first thought is to change the transmission fluid (using Honda fluid)

We are in the cold winter months here in England and need more experience of the car to determine if this eases up when the car has warmed up some, which I believe could indicate a fluid issue.

One thing I have noticed about the car which I feel may be contributing is the cars ability to “coast” – when I come off the throttle in first gear, the car does not coast along anything like my old Focus did. The slow down (or engine braking) is that much more apparent. I’ve checked the tyre pressure’s which seem ok so am not sure if this is due to the car being heavier or perhaps going from 15″ wheels to 17″ changes rolling resistance. In general in any gear the car does not coast off throttle as well as the Focus does and loses speed a lot quicker.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
Brian

Topic

[valde]

If its easy to select gears, and problems only start when lifting the clutch pedal, only thing that comes to my mind is engine/transmission mounts. Diesel engines in general tend to break mounts especially in cold weathers. Changing transmission fluid will probably do nothing but it’s good to change it if it’s still original.
What if you cost in neutral or clutch in?

[Andrew]

It sounds like your clutch might be grabbing. I have run diesel cars for years and there is no reason you should put up with jerky gear changes, especially on a relatively modern car like yours.

Just to be clear – ‘coasting’ is actually letting the car freewheel either in neutral or with the clutch in, and is a bad habit which driving instructors try to beat out of you. I do it, and I just had to take another driving test to pull heavy trailers. What you are describing is really called ‘overrun’ or engine braking and should be just as smooth as a petrol car, but possibly more effective.

Reasons for a grabbing clutch could be due to oil or grease on the disc facings, glazing, or loose disc facings. Broken parts in the clutch, such as broken disc facings, broken facing springs, or a broken pressure plate, will also cause grabbing. A binding slave cylinder or release bearing/fork could also be at fault.

I have a feeling your car has a dual mass flywheel, which could cause similar symptoms if frozen or cracked. I believe there is an inspection plate through which you can gently pry at the ring gear to check for play and how good the damping is. Failing that, remove the starter motor to get access.

Before you pull everything apart, however, I would check easier stuff – suspension and spring mounts, and engine and transmission mounts. By all means change gearbox oil, but crappy oil normally causes difficult gear selection and noisy gears rather than jerky power delivery.

Andrew

[Brian McIntyre]

Thanks for your input Valde, If I go into neutral or engage the clutch, it coasts perfectly.

And the symptoms are more so in first gear which makes me think it could be in some way connected to the more jerky shifts from that gear.

[Brian McIntyre]

Thanks for your input Andrew, do you think I should look at getting the clutch adjusted/inspected?

It does indeed have a dual mass flywheel, which I’ve heard some horror stories about and was my only reservation about buying the car, if it is botched I’ll but gutted because that is an expensive job.

Could a grabbing clutch be causing the seemingly excessive engine braking when coming off throttle in first gear before shifting?

P.S and If it were unclear I am referring to engine braking/overrun and not true coasting as you say.

[Brian McIntyre]

And not discounting engine mounts which you have both brought up.

I looked at a diesel TDCI Ford before the Civic, and even I deduced the engine mountings were bad on the car as the whole engine lurched forward when the engine was revved.

[Andrew]

“Thanks for your input Andrew, do you think I should look at getting the clutch adjusted/inspected?”

I would eliminate the easy stuff that Valde and I have suggested, e.g. mounts and gearbox oil before that. I imagine yours has a hydraulic clutch linkage, so no adjustment other than bleeding or replacing the hydraulics. As for inspection, there may be an inspection cover or plug on the bell housing – have a peek with a good torch.

“Could a grabbing clutch be causing the seemingly excessive engine braking when coming off throttle in first gear before shifting?”

Engine braking on a diesel IS pretty strong in first gear, as I have found when accidentally shifting from 4th down to 1st instead of 3rd on approach to a roundabout – the engine nearly threw its pistons throught the bonnet! However, the braking should not intrude when changing UP from 1st to 2nd, unless the clutch bite is very low down or it’s grabbing.

I suppose I should add that diesel cars do need a slightly different driving style, e.g. you don’t need to rev the engine so much to pull away, and 3rd gear braking in a diesel is probably equivalent to 2nd gear in a petrol. Your symptoms seem more extreme than just ‘getting used to the car’.

Andrew

[Brian McIntyre]

I am finding that the shift can be smooth if it is dropped into neutral for a second or so before going up to the next gear. Going into 3rd, 4th and onwards I do not have to hesitate anywhere near as much engaging the next gear and these feels more “normal” to me and are smooth.

Does this mean anything?

[EricTheCarGuy]

It’s a hydraulic clutch so there is no ‘adjustment’. You might be onto something with the fluid theory. It’s worth a shot. I find that many issues like the one you describe are often the result of improper fluid. More useful info here.

http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/solving-transmission-problems

Keep us posted on your progress.

[Andrew]

Hmmm…. Sticky gearbox oil could force you to pause in neutral before gently selecting next gear, as the technique allows more time for the synchromesh to do its stuff. I did drive an old Land Rover once which the farmer had filled with some gloopy old viscous crap he found in a shed somewhere. I not only had to pause between gears, but had to ‘double clutch’ as well. We fixed it with some proper oil, but the problem was with gear selection rather than power delivery.

I suggest you raise your car up (level), change the ‘box oil, and while you’re under there, poke and pry the mounts and bushes. If no improvement, let us know.

Andrew

P.S. seeing as you’re in the UK like me, try typing your reg. into http://www.commaoil.com/products, which will tell you which oil and how much to use in your gearbox. Failing that, the Castrol website has a similar feature. However, I note you were going to use Honda oil, so you’ll have to pull out the owner’s manual or start Googling.

I use Castrol SynTrans in my gearboxes, which is not manufacturer recommended, but it works like a charm.

[Lorrin Barth]

You have a grabby clutch that is also chattering when you shift from 1st to 2nd. I have a car that had a clutch like this and the chattering went away as the clutch wore down. As for a smooth shift between 1st and 2nd, does it matter? The clutch will wear a lot longer if you are a little abrupt with getting off the pedal. I don’t mean rough but not perfectly smooth either.

As for engine braking, this car will have a lot more due to the higher compression of the engine.

So, in conclusion, if not getting worse, I’d just run it.

[Brian McIntyre]

Hi all, thanks for all replies on this. I am going to be doing a full service including the gear box oil with Honda MTF3. Got all the stuff just waiting for a friend who has the equipment to get it done.

The more I drive it the more I suspect it is the gear oil. As LandRover said, I have also from time to time had to double declutch, and when it warms up it does get a bit smoother.

I would say gear selection is not the easiest and when pulling away the other day I put it into second and it did not engage the gear! Another symptom of bad oil and nothing more sinister I hope…

Not driving it at the moment until I can get it changed out, I suspect it’s gunged up, low or the wrong stuff is in. Fingers crossed it’s just this! As soon as it’s done and I’ve run it through for 100 miles or so I’ll let you know if it’s helped.

[EricTheCarGuy]

Everything you describe sounds like a fluid issue. That said, it may take a bit before it starts shifting better after the fluid change. It will need some time to work in before it works it’s magic. Keep us posted and good luck.

[Brian McIntyre]

Finally got round to checking this out and found something quite worrying. It seems whoever had serviced the car just before I bought it had majorly over filled the transmission fluid. We took out a good 2 litres+ before it stopped pouring out of the level plug. Luckily I hadn’t done a lot of miles like this and had stopped driving it. The stuff that came out was Crystal and clearly new. It felt a bit better pretty much straight away but only drove home a couple of miles and not had the engine up to operating temperature yet. Hopefully this won’t have caused any damage! Will see how it gets on from now and report back. Any thoughts on the over filling appreciated.
Cheers guys.

[EricTheCarGuy]

If they overfilled it, it’s not likely that they used the correct fluid. I can’t stress enough how important it is to use Honda fluid in a Honda transmission. Iv’e seen MANY problems caused by using other fluids.

Thanks for the update and keep us posted.

[Andrew]

Hi,

I’ve heard of overfilling the engine many times, but only once has someone I know done it to a gearbox, and they were trying to revive a worn out old one. If you fill them right to the top there’s nowhere for the oil to expand, other than the breather tube and if this is blocked it can cause seal leaks. The gears are meant to be splash lubricated or have the oil climb up them, and I think continual immersion in oil results in them ‘churning’ it. This increases friction, generates heat, and can result in the oil foaming up which reduces its lubricating ability, generating more heat.

Overfilling the worn ‘box didn’t help it, and in general you will find that you can’t beat the engineers who designed the unit and specified the oil level. Those lads are cleverer than we tinkerers give them credit for!

[Author]

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