Honda 1997 Accord cylinder head issue

[Peter Thiel]

Hello my name is Pete and this is my first post. This is a little long with history of my Honda wagon engine overhaul and current cylinder head leak issue. If anyone has some recommendations on parts and or procedures to prevent this from happening in the future.

Here’s a little history on my 1997 Honda Accord Wagon EX with F22b2 4 cyl, V-Tec engine, automatic transmission. I rebuilt the engine 100,000 miles ago, as I got the car from a neighbor that overheated the engine pretty good. The block and head were taken to a machine shop and reworked with no issues. Then I rebuilt it using OEM parts and gaskets, head bolts.

Recently I have been losing coolant and I have not found any external leaks anywhere. After driving 25 miles or so then parking for while at the store and then starting the car it sputters and misses sometimes, not ever time after is sits for a little while. Then a lot of white smoke (moisture, steam I suspect as it clears out after driving home). I pulled the spark plugs and notice wet cylinders on #2, #3. I did a cold engine, dry cylinder compression test, with #1 cyl @ 200, #2 190, #3 190, #4 200. I’m also seeing small bubbles in radiator even after ensuring the bleed screw was free of air.

I’m pretty certain I have a leaking head gasket or cracked head.

What I don’t get is that the engine hasn’t over heated, both cooling fans work when the A/C is on, which is ran most of the time when the car is driven. The temperature gauge is working. Right now with the outside air temp at 59 degrees F. The engine is hot but doesn’t kick on the radiator cooling fan with the A/C off, and the temp gauge is below the middle mark where it usually reads when the engine is hot. I do notice a small amount of movement on the temp gauge from its normal position.

The engine runs fine but it’s not right and I suspect the cylinder head is warped slightly. I have been using Honda head gaskets from Majestic Honda, is there a better head gasket? (Felpro Perma-torque MLS 9958PT1, Victor Reinz Head gasket, 54216, and what about Victor Reinz GS33407 Head bolts, on the market?

If anyone has any advice on parts, procedures, or any other test to prevent future failure let me know.
I’m also using Honda Accord V-Tec engine shop Manual, using a three step torque sequence up to 72.3 ft lbs torque on cylinder head bolts, and a beam style torque wrench from Sears.

Thanks for reading and for any advise in advance.

Pete

Topic

[Chris]

Hey Pete,

I am by no means an engine builder or professional mechanic, but i have done a head gasket job on my honda as well. Using oem parts was a very good idea from the start as well as having the head and blocked worked by a machine shop.

The fel-pro head gaskets are just fine and have used them with no issues.

The symptoms you described are the exact same symptoms I had when my gasket blew. Bubbles in the radiator/ over flow, very rough starts even when warm, excessive white smoke and loss of coolant. Other than that it would run fine I even had a technician check for compression gases via the syringe/ fluid color change thingy ( sorry dont know exactly the name of that tester) but it checked out fine. It wasnt until i took the spark plug out, took a vacuum hose and stuck it in the cylinder. The hose was soaked in coolant and i thought to myself “well darn it, its the head gasket”.

Based on your compression numbers I would say that a cracked head would not cause such good compression, but rather a slight leak in the head gasket that would seal as the engine runs only allowing only some coolant to burn. This explains why it would start rough both cold and warm because the pressure from the cooling system would push coolant through that leak. The bubbles and overly excessive pressure is caused by the compression gasses seeping the leak and into the cooling system. This is what at least happened to me. The only way to know for sure is either a leak down and/ or removing the head and taking it to a shop.

The only advice I can give you is the advice i received from an engine builder and honda master technician is using a click style torque wrench rather than an I-beam. Yes, I have heard many and i mean “MANY” arguments that the Ibeam is more accurate than a click style and why one should use an I-beam, and vise versa, but what the masters where emphasizing with a job like this is consistency. All bolts must be torqued the “same” if you know what i mean. With an I beam, you can be very careful to try to torque all the bolts the same, but at the same time some might be over torqued or under torqued. As the engine goes through various heat cycles, those uneven torques would cause the head to warp possibly causing another leak. Can torque be uneven with a click style, possibly, but when they said that i should use my thirty dollar click style rather than my nicer I-beam i was kinda perplexed ( i even showed them the wrenches lol) ” If I were you, I would use an the click style” they told me as they pointed to my click style wrench. So I did, and so far I have no issues ( other than a pinging problem that i have been trying to solve for 3 years that is discussed in another forum).

So here is the advice i can give you. Use a click-style torque wrench ( maybe take back the sears I beam to get their click style, however, both are nice to have for other various jobs), Generously oil the bolts and washers with engine oil( use new bolts if you can, Too much or too little oil and even dirty head bolt holes would cause the bolts to “pop” causing uneven torque values), felpro head gaskets are just fine( oem is good too), use a thread chaser( carefully) to clean the head bolt holes as well as use a tap and die set to even out the threads of the head bolts (even with a fresh set), clean both matting surfaces with a mild scrub ( the engine builder suggested i use the red 3M scrub to clean the surfaces, can be purchased at any auto parts store), use a lint free towel coated with engine oil to clean the cylinder walls of debris from the disassemble and scrubbing ( he also suggested I spray wd-40 around the piston and turn the crank to clean anything that could have fallen between the walls and piston). Put everything back together, torque everything down,make sure mechanical timming is correct, prime the engine and fire her up.

I hope that helps, again im am by no means a pro but this advice is what i got from the pros as well as various research from forums such as Honda- tech and d-series.org.

I hope and pray everything goes well for you Pete.
Happy building

Chris

[Peter Thiel]

Thanks Chris for your help and recommendations.

I was think of using a different torque wrench this time around as I was wondering the same thing that your Honda techs said. I was looking at the sears digital torque wrench listed online, but I wondered about the accuracy compared to straight up click type. I’m going to pull the head and get it checked out and go from their. I think once I get a look at the head gasket and see how much the head is warped, (hopefully not cracked) it will tell the tale.

I’ll post what I find wrong, but that might be a few weeks as some home projects are on my to do list first.

I noticed on my engine that the valve train is rather noise (sounds like a sewing machine) I ordered new Lost motion assemblies which are made of a heavy spring material and smooth tappet head compared to the original oil filled hydraulic version. I haven’t installed them yet because I didn’t feel like pulling the cam off the head. I will now while everything is coming apart. I had some ignition pinging and found the Vtec engine doesn’t like Bosch plugs, changed to NGK and it ran much better. Not sure if that’s the type of ping noise your hearing or if it might be a valve train noise.

Thanks, Pete

[Chris]

I assumed that all honda heads used lost motion assemblies, the difference being the vtech assemblies having different oil passages that would activate when the car reaches a certain oil pressure that pushes a lock pin to activate the more aggressive cam lobes otherwise known as vtech. Thus why the assemblies from a vtech head look way different from a non vtech. I think eric explains it as well and there are various youtube vids that explain better than i just did.

Are these the assemblies you are referring to swapping? So in essence, you are removing the vtech assembly for a non vtech assembly? Correct me if I am wrong.

I run copper ngks in my honda always, however i have used champion plugs once for a little while due to unforeseen circumstances with no problems lol. My issue seems to be pinging possibly from the higher compression from the head being resurfaced or ignition or cam advance from the head being resurfaced throwing off the cam timing a lil.

Keep us posted on the job. =]

Chris

[Peter Thiel]

You are right on the lost motion assemblies heads on the vtec as it keeps the mid rocker arm in contact with the camshaft.

I’m replacing the old lost motion assemblies with the newer spring design to see if it helps quiet down the valve train. I read on a few forums that a weak lost motion assembly can cause some noise from the mid rocker arm. Not sure if that’s true or not but I got them and will swap them out.

Take care, Pete

[Bret]

i know this is an old post and maybe somebody will see this.
I have a 96 accord 5spd, stock. F22B2, thinking it’s the same motor on this 97
had the head machined and everything back together new with oem parts. started it up with no CEL on, but after hitting op temps my CEL flashes. im wondering if this is because the head was machined and the compression is throwing off the ECU, or if anyone else has seen this problem.

dont know that it makes a difference, but i couldn’t get any codes from the CEL blink trick, but after about 7 minutes it blinked 7 times, then 11, then twice beforei shut her down. i jsut wanted to see if it would stay solid or blink again, which it did.

[Peter Thiel]

Hello Joe, When I did the cylinder head gasket renew on my 1997 honda I never got a CEL. I don’t believe having the head shaved would throw off ECU. You could do a couple of things, disconnect the batter and let it sit so the computer resets itself. Buy a code reader I used an OBD 2 reader and the plug is behind the ashtray in center console.. You could have Advance auto, or auto zone run a check for you. They use to do that? I would double check all your sensor connection plugs to make sure they are all plugged in and didn’t pop off, it easy to miss one when putting things back together. Maybe one of the oxygen sensors are acting up, or a sensor is bad. I would also check the vacuum lines in case any got disconnected during head removal. One thing I learned about this engine is they don’t like to be overheated and I had a one of the cooling fan motors sticking, (Bad bearing) as it wouldn’t kick on smoothly, it would take a minute to turn. If you have any other questions let me know as I can look through my Honda repair manual. Here’s my email. thiel.peter.cw@gmail.com Peter

[Bret]

well, that’s good to hear.
i’ve double checked all of my connectors, but it never hurt to check again.
I did just download a manual, although im disappointed that it doesn’t cover fan trouble shooting, neither of mine are kicking on, with a/c on or other.
hoping that is a connector lol, i also printed off the vacuum diagram to double check that tonight.
I did have to replace my secondary o2 sensor (by the catback) but that cleared all the codes after pulling the fuse to reset.
without resetting the CEL is constant on, except when it blinks.
I’ll be headed to Autozone for a code reader tonight,(they do still read them for free btw) i might as well make the buy lol. besides that, I’ve read that a blinking CEL is pretty much your car yelling “pull over before i get terminal”, if your not pulling codes that is.
if you wouldn’t mind sending me the cooling fan diagnostics, if they are in your repair manual i would really appreciate it.
my email is joezmam367@gmail.com

thanks peter!

[Peter Thiel]

Joe, you could make a set of mini jumper cables with small alligator clips, unhook the wire harness at the fan then connect the jumper wire to fan side of the plug and then to car battery to make sure they work. I’ll dig up my Manual and see what I can find on the cooling fans. The sensors are fairly reasonable through Rockauto, I used them a lot for my parts and I think they had good prices on the Fans too. Also check your owners manual it might talk about the A/C fan relay switch. I seem to remember a couple of relays on the right side of the radiator just under the front upper frame. I no longer have my honda’s otherwise I could take a picture of them and location.

Peter

[Peter Thiel]

Joe, The TYC cooling fans $32.00 plus shipping from Rockauto are the ones I used on my Honda’s and never had a problem with them. Pretty easy to replace. They also so the fan motor relays listed under electrical switch. Search on this forum too I think Eric covers cooling system problems?

[Bret]

i jumped the fans last night, they both work, the motors turn with no problem that is.
i’ve used rockauto for quite a few things but recently made a friend that works for Honda, and i prefer to use OE parts, especially for electrical, honda’s seem to be weird like that. been through a few distributor remans that were crap
after reading through a few forums, and checking ETCG’s youtube channel ill be taking home my multi-meter tonight and checking the sensors/relays on the left side of the block. I also just replaced, and double checked a new thermostat, so im ruling that out.
ill update sometime later during the weekend to let you know how it goes,
thanks Peter

[EricTheCarGuy]

[quote=”joezmam367″ post=149378]i jumped the fans last night, they both work, the motors turn with no problem that is.
i’ve used rockauto for quite a few things but recently made a friend that works for Honda, and i prefer to use OE parts, especially for electrical, honda’s seem to be weird like that. been through a few distributor remans that were crap
after reading through a few forums, and checking ETCG’s youtube channel ill be taking home my multi-meter tonight and checking the sensors/relays on the left side of the block. I also just replaced, and double checked a new thermostat, so im ruling that out.
ill update sometime later during the weekend to let you know how it goes,
thanks Peter[/quote]

Aftermarket distributors for Hondas are crap, but the motors are OK. As for your misfire, did you have the valves adjusted? A flashing CEL means a misfire is detected. Sometimes misadjusted valves can cause that.

As for an overheat problem. I’ve written extensively about how to solve those here.

http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/what-to-do-when-your-engine-overheats

Please keep us updated on your progress. Also in the future, you might want to start a thread of your own to make things more ‘searchable’.

[Bret]

I did adjust the valves when i did the head gasket, but i’ll be double checking those tonight as well.
i did buy a scan tool today, and replaced the fan relay, which was bad, but my rad fan still iS NOT KICKING ON when i shut the car down, and the a/c fan IS NOT KICKING ON when i turn AC on either. so im still sorting through this. but want to take care of the misfire first.
my code reader is picking up a random misfire on 3, and what im thinking is a consistent misfire from cyl 1.
at idle about 8 minutes after op temp comes up, idle drops to 700 or so like it should, CEL blinks 7 times, stays solid, then continually blinks. but still nothing more than a misfire code.
is there something i’m missing here? like i stated above, I’ve read a continually blinking CEL is on it’s way to terminal, and i have a hard time believing that Honda didn’t put a sensor in for something like this.

as always, any and all help is appreciated.

On a side note, I do have live viewing on my OBD2 reader, and can see the engine temp, but my physical gauge in the cluster sits unmoved … I did test the wiring by grounding out the wiring, and it did react as it should, leading me to believe that it’s just the sensor in the block

[Bret]

UPDATE

I pulled the valve cover last night to double check the valve clearance.
i was taught to set #1 TDC by using a long 1/2″ extension and the crankshaft mark, so i did it that way, and when i was at TDC, i noticed that my crank shaft was off about 1 tooth or so.

is there a proper technique to move the camshaft to where it should be?

logically i would
1- loosen the tensioner nut
2-move the shaft to where it should be
3-back TDC off clockwise to the marks before TDC (3/4″ or so)
*****i should mention with this step, that it’s just something that i picked up after timing this a few times, that normally if I back it off to the preTDC marks, it usually ends up all in time.
4- crank the motor over counter clockwise roughly 3-4 teeth on the camshaft
5- re tighten the tensioner nut
6- then do the valve adjustment according to my Hanes manual or ETCG’s technique

i also am led to believe that because my timing was off, that my valves are out of adjustment one way or the other, and will give an update again later tonight when i get home, if I’ve heard back on here about adjusting my timing.

if there is something not right about my logical thinking here, please point it out and as always “stay dirty”

[Bret]

Got home, adjusted the timing as I saw fit, it seemed to work, the valves were within.0005-.001 of spec, but I set them “dead nuts” as some machinists say. The misfire in 1 is gone, but still in 3. At this point I’m not worried about the fans, but looking around, I do believe I may be missing a vacuum line, although I don’t know that it would cause a misfire. My hanes manual didn’t have a diagram for the vacuum lines unfortunately, does anyone else here have one for an F22B2?

[Author]

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