- This topic has 13 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 2 months ago by
.
-
Topic
-
Can BlueDevil Head Gasket Sealer be effective when combustion gases are getting into cooling system?
We have a 1999 Camry 4 cylinder with 218,000 miles that has one foot in the grave. The repairs it would need to stay on the road long term don’t make financial sense. So we’re going to buy a different car, but we’re going to be really screwed if the Camry dies before we can use it to find one. I’m trying to figure out if [URL=”http://store.gobluedevil.com/head-gasket-sealer-38386/”%5DBlue Devil Head Gasket Sealer[/URL] would likely be effective in temporarily keeping this car on the road.
The day after it passed inspection (with no issues, much to my relief) I noticed the temp gauge going up to the high end / into the red. When it happens it erratically cycles between the middle of the gauge (normal) and high / red for pretty brief periods. It’s also lost coolant, had erratic heater performance (plus gurgling in the dash / engine area), and rough idling when started.
I took it to a shop that pressure tested the cooling system and tested the coolant for combustion gases. This is what they wrote on the invoice: “Pressure test showed no external signs of leaking — Block test showed signs of internal head gasket leak”. They told me that the coolant tested positive for combustion gases and that is a sure sign of a head gasket leak (or cracked head or block). They told me the rough idling is from coolant leaking into the cylinders. They suggested that Blue Devil might fix the problem temporarily. They said they could apply the Head Gasket Sealer (not the Pour-N-Go version) for $250 and based on their experience they estimate about a 60% chance of success at fixing the problem for 6-12 months.
That’d be a good value if it bought us that much time or even less — I just need to buy enough time to get a different car without having to rush into a bad deal (e.g. drive a rental car to a dealership).
I had about decided to go for it yesterday, but was reading up a bit before pulling the trigger. The FAQ for the product has a question [URL=”https://store.gobluedevil.com/head-gasket-sealer-faq/#bd_4″%5D”My car is overheating. Will BlueDevil correct this?”[/URL] with an answer that starts off “No.” My understanding was that my car is overheating as a result of the head gasket leak. So if the product seals the leak, wouldn’t it correct the overheating in this case? That’s clearly the implication of the shop suggesting it to me.
Then I was reading some Amazon reviews. A [URL=”http://www.amazon.com/review/R2ZN3IYD8JKQJX/?#Mx2NDZORQ0YTQIG”%5Dcomment by “Alex P.”[/URL] really got my attention. Note, the comment is on a review of [URL=”http://store.gobluedevil.com/pour-n-go-head-gasket-sealer-00209/”%5DBlueDevil Pour-N-Go Head Gasket Sealer[/URL]. The shop quoted me the price for an application of the BlueDevil Head Gasket Sealer (non Pour-N-Go) that requires a more rigorous procedure. The comment starts off quoting that FAQ entry I mentioned. It goes on to say that exhaust gases in the coolant means an overheating issue and the Blue Devil product won’t help with that. It then says that the product is more effective in cases where coolant is leaking internally (into cylinders or crankcase) or externally, and not effective in cases where exhaust gases are getting into the cooling system.
Does anyone know if Alex P.’s comments about the Blue Devil not being effective in cases where combustion gases are getting into the coolant are accurate? And why? As I noted, the comments were related to the Pour-N-Go version of the product. Does anyone know if there’d be a difference in that regard between the Pour-N-Go and non Pour-N-Go versions?
I’m also wondering if using this product would interfere with being able to replace the head gasket later. Probably the only chance of selling this car for more than scrap value is to someone who wants to make the repairs it needs, including the head gasket, themself.
Thanks for your help
-
Replies
-
There are videos of blue devil and others working. That said, some did follow up saying that 6 months or a year later, they had to repeat the sealer addition. If you have coolant/oil mixing, likely these products will not work at all because the problem is probably pretty major, or the fix will fall apart pretty quick if it even works.
Since you are desperate because you need the vehicle and can’t afford a proper repair, these sealers might work. Most of us here at ETCG aren’t fans of them as they will not really fix the problem (and in many cases are just treating a symptom).
As far as the overheating, BlueDevil says “NO” because they do not know the cause of your overheating. Most overheating is caused by air in the cooling system (which could be from your combustion, or more often a system that needs to be bled). You can make repairs later, and generally these sealants won’t interfere with most passageways…but they could if they have undersized passageways.
If you are thinking of getting a new car in the next couple days, then I’d suggest putting coolant in, bleed the system and look for your car while watching your coolant level. If the coolant level is dropping that fast, I doubt any sealant is going to help anyway (my opinion).
I can relay my experience.. 1991 Mazda 626 392876 miles. Head gasket croaked about 10 years ago. I was in no position to change the gasket and went for a quick fix: K & W Permanent Metallic Block Seal 16 oz. Followed the instructions and the fix held for about 2 years. Installed a new head gasket at that time. Two years later the car started burning anti-freeze again.. Did the same treatment and it held for about 1 year.. Fast forward 3 years and the car is back to burning antifreeze again and it was bad enough to foul my plugs every 3 weeks. It got to be summer time and I went with just water and poured in K&W NanoTechnology Permanent Head Gasket & Block Repair, 32 fl. oz. and left it in. Within a day no more water burn and all went well till winter hit. Had to go back to antifreeze, all fixes failed and parked the car for the winter. This spring I pulled the head, it was cracked between the intake valves on numbers 2 and 3 cylinders, the head gasket was fine. Replaced the head, and all has been fine since.. So from my experience, the quick fixes work, but they are not permanent.
[quote=”1991Mazda626″ post=96718]Followed the instructions and the fix held for about 4 years.. [/quote]
That alone is impressive!
I have a 98 Camry 2.2 , as far as head gaskets go It does not look horrible. Of course, you don’t know what you will find when you get the head removed. It could be the cheapest fix to actually replace the head gasket yourself. I have no idea if you have tools, skills or time. Most likely, changing the head gasket will fix the overheating. Just depends if there has been additional damage due to the overheating. As far as using the stuff, might get you a little time, might not.
Good luckIf you are planning to lift the head off. Those model has a tendency to have the thread in the block to break… so technically the reason why you have a head gasket failure is that the head is not torque anymore… usually the middle section let go first.
Not to afraid you … but once the head is out… that may turn out to be an engine
Thank you all for the replies, I appreciate your help.
[quote=”KingMeander” post=96714]That said, some did follow up saying that 6 months or a year later, they had to repeat the sealer addition.[/QUOTE]
6 months would be awesome, because like I said the main thing is I need it to last long enough to get a different car without panicking. Even if it appeared to work I’d have to plan that the car could die any time, so I’d want to get another car before it came to that. It’s the only car, and we have few friends nearby, so if it died we’d be in a jam. Also I’m pretty sure this car is overdue for a timing belt, so I assume that (or the water pump, or whatever) could go any time and I’d rather avoid driving it until that happens — it’s really my girlfriends car, she drives it most of the time, and it’s better if she doesn’t have to deal with suddenly losing power on the highway, or anywhere for that matter (not that I’d like dealing with it either).
[quote=”KingMeander” post=96714]If you have coolant/oil mixing, likely these products will not work at all because the problem is probably pretty major, or the fix will fall apart pretty quick if it even works.
…
If the coolant level is dropping that fast, I doubt any sealant is going to help anyway (my opinion).[/QUOTE]It’s hard for me to tell how major the problem is in the context of trying to patch it temporarily with a sealer. Like I said, they tested the coolant positive for combustion gases. I haven’t seen any sign of milkshake oil on the dipstick or under the filler cap. I took a look at the car while running yesterday at ~60 degrees outside and no smoke to speak of from the tailpipe. I opened the coolant reservoir shortly after the car was running and there was a bit of tiny bubbles in there (for all I know this amount / size of bubbles can happen normally?).
The loss of coolant and appearance of the problem is quite erratic. Sometimes there’ll be plenty of coolant in the tank but not the radiator, other times it’s been able to suck a bunch of coolant into the radiator. And it hasn’t yet had a full blown overheat, steam pouring out of the hood kind of thing.
I got the diagnosis on 3/28. Since then my girlfriend has continued to drive the car about 12 miles each way to work and back (no choice) and it’s been driven a little otherwise locally, but we’ve avoided taking it on long trips. And since then I’ve been looking for a used car. I thought it’d be a lot easier to find something else to buy privately (mostly dealers and curbstoners have all the cars, and the private parties that do have them don’t want to answer questions like has it had a timing belt job), and I didn’t realize how inflated used car prices had become.
So if the Blue Devil could keep it going for that kind of service + some more far ranging driving to get to cars for sale, it’d be worth it.
[quote=”KingMeander” post=96714]As far as the overheating, BlueDevil says “NO” because they do not know the cause of your overheating. Most overheating is caused by air in the cooling system (which could be from your combustion, or more often a system that needs to be bled).[/QUOTE]
Are they wrong to say “no” — would “maybe” be more accurate? In other words, in your opinion is it possible that the overheating in this case is caused by something that the Blue Devil would fix (temporarily), thereby putting a stop to the overheating? What do you think about “Alex P.”‘s comments on Amazon saying it Blue Devil won’t be effective in cases where combustion gases are getting into the cooling system?
[quote=”KingMeander” post=96714]You can make repairs later, and generally these sealants won’t interfere with most passageways…but they could if they have undersized passageways.[/QUOTE]
Ok. Is that something I’d have a way of knowing based on the car / engine model, or is that a condition that could develop in any engine?
[quote=”KingMeander” post=96714]If you are thinking of getting a new car in the next couple days, then I’d suggest putting coolant in, bleed the system and look for your car while watching your coolant level. If the coolant level is dropping that fast, I doubt any sealant is going to help anyway (my opinion).[/QUOTE]
I would love to have the car buying process over with in the next couple days, but I doubt it’ll happen that fast. I topped up the coolant the other day. I could see coolant in the radiator pretty close to the top but added a little, and put some in the overflow tank, which was close to empty. Adding coolant to the overflow tank has limited usefulness, because like I said sometimes that’ll have plenty but the radiator won’t. Is it helpful if I keep refilling the radiator on a regular basis? How would I bleed it? The only way I know of (I’ve only read about it, never done it) would be to “burp” it by running the car with the radiator cap off. It’s kind of hard to do anything with the car because I live in an apartment complex.
[quote=”1991Mazda626″ post=96718]I can relay my experience..[/QUOTE]
Wow, thanks for sharing that. That is impressive. I could get away with a lot less time from one of these band-aids. That sounds like one tough car.
[quote=”Rob913meg” post=96723]I have a 98 Camry 2.2 , as far as head gaskets go It does not look horrible. Of course, you don’t know what you will find when you get the head removed. It could be the cheapest fix to actually replace the head gasket yourself. I have no idea if you have tools, skills or time. Most likely, changing the head gasket will fix the overheating. Just depends if there has been additional damage due to the overheating. As far as using the stuff, might get you a little time, might not.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, unfortunately replacing it myself isn’t an option. I live in an apartment complex and have nowhere to work on the car. I don’t have tools or experience either. If I had a good place to work and it wasn’t the only car, I might take a crack at learning to do it. Even if the job went as well as possible I don’t think it makes financial sense to pay someone to do the job on this car, but that not knowing what you’ll find when you get the head removed makes it seem extra unwise.
[quote=”Rob913meg” post=96723]
Good luck
[/QUOTE]Thanks.
[quote=”Kgevil” post=96728]If you are planning to lift the head off. Those model has a tendency to have the thread in the block to break… so technically the reason why you have a head gasket failure is that the head is not torque anymore… usually the middle section let go first.
Not to afraid you … but once the head is out… that may turn out to be an engine[/QUOTE]
Since I’ve been looking for a car to buy I found out that’s an issue with the next generation of Camry (5th) with 4 cylinder engines. Is that what you’re thinking of, or is that an issue with the 4th generation too? 5th generation Camry was one of the prime cars I was targeting until I found out about that, but I’m not trying to go from the frying pan into the fire with the same (although worse) problem that’s killing the current car. Some people say it was fixed in model year 2005 and up 4 cylinders, and I believe the 6 cylinders of all model years are supposed to be unaffected by that problem.
Thanks again, @KingMeander, @1991Mazda626, @Rob913meg, @Kgevil.
[quote=”whatever” post=96779]
Are they wrong to say “no” — would “maybe” be more accurate? In other words, in your opinion is it possible that the overheating in this case is caused by something that the Blue Devil would fix (temporarily), thereby putting a stop to the overheating? What do you think about “Alex P.”‘s comments on Amazon saying it Blue Devil won’t be effective in cases where combustion gases are getting into the cooling system?[/quote]Technically them saying “no” is the most accurate. A combustion leak into coolant doesn’t cause overheating. A potential symptom of a combustion leak is loss of coolant or gases into the coolant which could result in overheating. So “maybe” would be a possible way to say it, just not the most accurate when a company is protecting its butt.
That said, if your combustion leak is minor enough, I believe it’s possible for this to be a bandaid fix for you for a little while. Like your mechanic said “it may not work”, but if it’s all you got it’s all you have.
In my limited experience with cars, it seems to be European designs that have smaller flow passages then American and Japanese designs. I’m familiar enough to say with any specific vehicle; but with any vehicle it is a risk (how big…I don’t, but probably not very big).
As far as bleeding air out of the system, some vehicles are different. Burping may be the most effective way for yours. Be sure that while you are adding the coolant that you squeeze your hoses and perhaps have your heater on (again depending on the design) to make sure you are getting all the air out of the heater core as well.
The good news about your engine is that it is a non-interference engine. So if your timing belt breaks, it is unlikely to damage your engine. Just do as you fear that you’ll have a loss of power. You won’t lose steering though, so she should be able to move to the side of the road.
ETCG Videos
Briansmobile
Many engines over the years have converted from timing belts to timing chains. This information you can just google while you are car shopping because many people won’t even know if the vehicles they sell are belt or chain driven. As far as your due diligence, inspect visible belts and hoses and this can give you some insight into how the car was taken care of.
Good luck
I do not recommend the use of stop leak products to cure an issue like that. More information on diagnosing and solving overheat conditions here.
http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/what-to-do-when-your-engine-overheats
Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.
Thanks @KingMeander and @EricTheCarGuy for your replies. I will reply properly later. I just wanted to post a quick update. I was just driving the car and temp gauge was going up and down on me. When I stopped driving I popped the hood and watched for a while. At first the cooling fans were going on and off quite a bit. Then for quite a while they stopped coming on altogether, even when the temp gauge went into the red. What does that suggest? I’m guessing that’s a separate problem from a possible head gasket leak?
On some cars (almost all I have seen) sensors which turn the fans on and off are located inside the radiator, and not on the engine itself. Should the air get into the system, those sensors can stay cool enough not to turn the fans on. The gauge on your dash is inside the engine however, and it shows the actual temperature of the engine.
There are two ways you can try to get around this, one would be to run the heater all the time, another would be to bypass the sensors and make the fans run all the time the ignition is turned on, however if the headgasket leak is too bad, neither will help fix the problem.
Thanks for your reply @KingMeander.
[quote=”KingMeander” post=96789]
Technically them saying “no” is the most accurate. A combustion leak into coolant doesn’t cause overheating. A potential symptom of a combustion leak is loss of coolant or gases into the coolant which could result in overheating. So “maybe” would be a possible way to say it, just not the most accurate when a company is protecting its butt.
[/QUOTE]I guess I see what you’re saying, it’s just confusing to have the mechanic tell me it’s overheating due to a head gasket leak and that the product may “fix” it, and have the manufacturer’s website say that.
[quote=”KingMeander” post=96789]
That said, if your combustion leak is minor enough, I believe it’s possible for this to be a bandaid fix for you for a little while. Like your mechanic said “it may not work”, but if it’s all you got it’s all you have.
[/QUOTE]Ok, thanks. At this point I would do it if it was just a matter of it might help, it might not and I felt confident that it wouldn’t make things [I]worse[/I], but “Alex P.”‘s Amazon comment concludes by saying that for the product to work the car has to hold normal operating temp for 50 minutes with only the fan to keep the temperature down. That appears to be part of his explanation of why he doesn’t think it will work in a case where combustion gases are getting into the cooling system. The instructions don’t actually say that the car has to hold operating temp (and no higher), but based on what I was watching the car do yesterday, it does beg the question: if the car is idling for 50 minutes per the instructions and the temp is up in the red, what’s that going to do to the engine? Could that just kill it?
I will note that the instructions say to turn the heater to max. I’ve had mixed results bringing the temp gauge down by doing that. When it was idling yesterday and I was watching it, once it got in the red and the cooling fans didn’t kick on, I cranked the heater and that would bring the temp down at the time. The need to idle for 50 minutes does worry me more after having watched the cooling fans fail to kick on though.
[quote=”KingMeander” post=96789]
In my limited experience with cars, it seems to be European designs that have smaller flow passages then American and Japanese designs. I’m familiar enough to say with any specific vehicle; but with any vehicle it is a risk (how big…I don’t, but probably not very big).
[/QUOTE]Ok, thanks. The main thing is to keep the car running. Still being saleable to someone who wanted to do the repair later would be a bonus.
[quote=”KingMeander” post=96789]
As far as bleeding air out of the system, some vehicles are different. Burping may be the most effective way for yours. Be sure that while you are adding the coolant that you squeeze your hoses and perhaps have your heater on (again depending on the design) to make sure you are getting all the air out of the heater core as well.
[/QUOTE]I’m not used to doing this kind of stuff, and the idea of running the car with the radiator cap off and poking around the hoses and stuff kind of freaks me out when one is warned to be very cautious around the coolant in a hot engine to avoid being scalded. I’m also curious how much coolant ends up on the ground if you do that.
[quote=”KingMeander” post=96789]
The good news about your engine is that it is a non-interference engine. So if your timing belt breaks, it is unlikely to damage your engine. Just do as you fear that you’ll have a loss of power.
[/QUOTE]Yes, thank you. Before the car was re-inspected I realized it is probably overdue for a timing belt and was happy to find out it’s a non-interference engine, in case it went before I could get it done. Not long after I was less happy when I found out the whole engine is toast anyway due to the head gasket leak.
[quote=”KingMeander” post=96789]
You won’t lose steering though, so she should be able to move to the side of the road.
[/QUOTE]Ok, that’s good to know. Still, I’d worry about making that maneuver, especially on the highway.
[quote=”KingMeander” post=96789]
Many engines over the years have converted from timing belts to timing chains. This information you can just google while you are car shopping because many people won’t even know if the vehicles they sell are belt or chain driven.
[/QUOTE]Yeah, I’m definitely favoring models with chains, since the people selling cars with belts either don’t know or don’t want to answer whether timing belt jobs have been done. I found out that even on cars with chains, that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re in the clear though. For example, I got excited when I saw a 2005 Nissan Altima 3.5 that looked good at first blush for sale in the right price range and found out that it has a timing chain. Then I found out that a bunch of Nissan engines with timing chains, including the one in this Altima, are [URL=http://gotaclassaction.com/nissan-north-america-named-in-class-action-lawsuit-alleging-failure-to-disclose-defect-in-timing-chain-systems-which-results-in-premature-failure/]alleged to have defective tensioners[/URL]. Also, the other day I was looking at an ad for a 1999 Maxima for sale and was happy to see that has a timing chain, but I guess you still have to do the water pump on that engine (?). I know that in many (all?) engines with timing belts it’s advisable to at least consider replacing the water pump when doing the timing belt because they’re both a pain in the ass to get to and a lot of the labor is in common. I was wondering if in an engine like the 1999 Maxima has whether the water pump is as much of a pain in the ass to get to as on an engine with a timing belt, and therefore expensive to change — haven’t had the chance to look into that yet.
[quote=”KingMeander” post=96789]
As far as your due diligence, inspect visible belts and hoses and this can give you some insight into how the car was taken care of.
[/QUOTE]Ok, thanks. I don’t [I]really[/I] know what to look for, but I have looked up some tips on scoping out cars and they say to feel the hoses to see how hard they are and feel the belts to see if they’re frayed, so I’m going to do my best to check them out.
[quote=”KingMeander” post=96789]
Good luck
[/QUOTE]Thank you.
Thanks for your reply @EricTheCarGuy.
[quote=”EricTheCarGuy” post=96823]
I do not recommend the use of stop leak products to cure an issue like that.
[/QUOTE]Not even to “cure” it temporarily on a car that it doesn’t make financial sense to do a legitimate fix on, just to keep it on the road a bit longer?
[quote=”EricTheCarGuy” post=96823]
More information on diagnosing and solving overheat conditions here.http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/what-to-do-when-your-engine-overheats
[/QUOTE]Thanks for the link. I haven’t read them all, but those pages are how I originally found the site from a search engine. That’s where I got the cue to check the tailpipe for smoke a couple days ago while idling at above 50F. I’m going to check out the video on bleeding the cooling system and see what that involves.
[quote=”EricTheCarGuy” post=96823]
Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.
[/QUOTE]Thanks, I will try to report back here whatever happens.
Thanks for your reply @chupo.
[quote=”chupo” post=96886]
On some cars (almost all I have seen) sensors which turn the fans on and off are located inside the radiator, and not on the engine itself. Should the air get into the system, those sensors can stay cool enough not to turn the fans on. The gauge on your dash is inside the engine however, and it shows the actual temperature of the engine.There are two ways you can try to get around this, one would be to run the heater all the time, another would be to bypass the sensors and make the fans run all the time the ignition is turned on, however if the headgasket leak is too bad, neither will help fix the problem.
[/QUOTE]My understanding is that the combustion gases getting into the cooling system are displacing coolant from the radiator, so if the coolant in the radiator is low I wonder how much difference it would even make if the fans are running. I think that’s what you mean when you say it won’t help if the head gasket leak is too bad?
If you have an overheat issue don’t make assumptions. This article outlines what to look for and how to diagnose an overheat issue. You might be surprised at some of the solutions.
http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/what-to-do-when-your-engine-overheats
Good luck and keep us posted.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.