Got spark, fuel, battery, car cranks – won’t start

[robert]

OK… i’m puzzled. I’ve got a 2001 Honda Civic. It’s been running great. 37 mph. Pulled it in garage on Sunday. The next morning… no start.

(note: the following paragraph added in later for better detail) The first two times I turned the key, it sounded like the starter was just spinning free, without turning over the engine. zzzzzzing. The third time, it began turning over as usual, just no start. And it has continued to turn over every time since then, no start.

I’ve tested and have spark, I can hear the fuel pump kick in when I turn the key, and can smell it when I crank the engine, new fully charged battery, car cranks – but it won’t won’t start.

I know compression is third big element, but not sure how to test that on this car. Can’t screw in my compression tester on these engines with submerged spark plug.

Need to try spraying starting fluid up the air intake to make sure the fuel isn’t and issue positively.

When it cranks, it’s not a super fast crank, but it seems adequate.

Kind of wondering: Is it possible that bad gas might be an issue? Or ignition coils on each cylinder, even though I’m getting a spark through them?

Grasping at straws here.

Thanks in advance for any insights.

Topic

[Andrew]

With a crank-no-start, look at the FACTS:

Fuel – eliminate with starting fluid as you say. Check all fuses too.
Airflow – Intake restrictions/choke/plugged exhaust – unlikely
Compression – Listen to crank speed – unlikely to have sudden loss unless…
Timing – …belt gone?
Spark – you have this.

Bad gas (or petrol, as we say here) could be an issue, but usually causes rough running beforehand. As for ignition coils, I would look away from these and concentrate on the fuel system.

[robert]

Been doing some reading and this is beginning to look like a crank position sensor. http://troubleshootmyvehicle.com/honda/1.7L/how-to-test-the-crank-sensor-1

Still testing and trying to see what piece of the puzzle is missing or misbehaving, so to speak.

[robert]

LandRover – thanks for the response. Good common sense check list.

Q:if the timing belt was gone, it wouldn’t turn over, would it?

Hence my suspicion of the crank position sensor… purely an uneducated guess.

Gas is a possibility, as it has recently turned quite cold here… into the teens at night, although the car has been in the garage.

BTW: I added the following paragraph to the original post to offer some more details. It might be helpful in diagnosis: “The first two times I turned the key, it sounded like the starter was just spinning free, without turning over the engine. zzzzzzing. The third time, it began turning over as usual, just no start. And it has continued to turn over every time since then, no start.”

Thanks for the thinks.

[Andrew]

Yes, if the timing belt was gone it would still turn over, but oddly.

As far as I know, the ECU on your model needs a crank signal to generate spark and fuel pulses, hence I didn’t suspect it in your case. Some engines take their cue from the cam sensor, or a combination of both so I can’t be sure.

Your starter behaviour could be just the Bendix not engaging properly with the ring gear, but it does point me a little more to the timing belt – can you open the timing cover a little and watch the upper pulleys as you crank?

[Ingvar]

1. zzzzing means you have chipped off tooth on flywheel and by devilish luck everything stopped right where that gap engages with Bendix. We had this job done on older Accord. Sometimes rocking car back fore helps, as it may move flywheel and engage starter.
2. otherwise, if you have spark, petrol, oxygen, and crank, it’s timing issue.
3. or, simply flooded spark plugs. 2 fixes. You start car with “flooded ” technique or, you take plugs out, burn them electrodes white with propane torch, reinstall and try then.

[robert]

Given the zzzzzzing sound at the first, the parts store manager suggested the starter might be going out and turning over too slowly… So I bought one and took it home, so I’d have it on hand if needed. (I can always take it back, if unused.)

Before replacing the starter, though, I thought I’d check the fuel component one more time, just to make sure.

Disconnected the end of the air intake, so I could get a clear shot at it. Sprayed in starter fluid and tried. There was a very subtle hint of a sound that it might be trying to start, then it continued just cranking.

I recalled an Eric video that recommended allowing it to crank for a considerable period of time.

So, I shot starter fluid in the air system again, cranked it for a good full minute and it slowly started sputtering its way to life. When I eventually let off the ignition, it continued sputtering and shortly after came back to normal life.

Thank you Lord! and Eric. Much cheaper than a starter, or crank position sensor, etc. And, easier than a timing belt.

So the original cause, I’m guessing was the cold weather and/or bad gas/condensation might have caused the problem originally. The parts store suggested that the ZZZZZZing sound probably was the starter not throwing out and engaging with the engine. And that the brushes on the starter might be going out, which would be exaggerated by the cold weather.

Sounds somewhat logical.

So, I’ve put some ISO gas drier in the fuel tank. And, I’m leaving the car out in the cold tonight to see if it will provide a repeat performance. I’d rather have it happen in the driveway, then out in the buckwheat.

If the problem repeats, I’ll probably begin by replacing the starter.

If everything continues running well, however, this seems like it might be a great time heed this warning and do some preventative maintenance… e.g. Change the timing belt (now that I know it’s an interference timing belt — WHY in the heck are they still putting these silly things in cars!!! I thought they stopped that in the 90s. Entirely too risky to leave to until something does officially go wrong and and engine is permanently damaged. YIKES, NOT a good plan.); ALSO replace the ignition coils, plugs, etc.

$100-$150 now vs. $3000 later.

Thank you all for your input and insights! Greatly appreciated.

God willing, the car will run smoothly for the next several days and nothing has been damaged.

Hey, take the rest of the weekend off!

[Johnathon Balderas]

It’s possible your battery may have been dead. A dead battery can make are car do all kinds of weird stuff.

[robert]

Even though the car seems to be running fine again, I’d like to ask a related question.

If the auto parts store manager was correct, and the zzzzzing spinning sound was indeed the starter — more exactly the selinoid failed to kick the starter into gear with the engine so the starter just spun those first two time, hence the zzzzing and no engine turning over….

is it then possible that those two failures caused the engine to flood, with the fuel pump doing it’s job on both occasions, causing the fuel to build up???

Just curious about the possible cause. Thanks again for the expertise of the mechanics out there.

[Erin]

Anything is possible.

with the “zzzing” thing – I would imagine if there were a broken tooth on the flywheel, you would hear something stupid happen each time that part of the flywheel engaged the starter. Maybe.

It is good you are planning on doing some preventive maintenance. Maybe investigate still what the likely cause was while you are ahead.

Sometimes cars do dumb stuff. Usually it is nothing to worry about unless it is a serious and consistent problem.

Also I don’t know the time limit but in no-start conditions, do not over work the starter. That can and will burn them out.

[Andrew]

I doubt it – If the engine was not being turned over by the starter, then the crank sensor would not have been sending a signal to the ECU, which in turn would not have been telling the injectors to pulse and let fuel into the cylinders. The prolonged cranking you did after that, possibly with bad fuel, might have flooded the engine afterwards, though.

If you had a chipped tooth on the flywheel it normally shows up as a rapid knocking sound as you crank. As the weather gets colder sometimes you see starter solenoids seizing slightly and not throwing the pinion gear into engagment. Given your recent trouble, I would get your battery and alternator tested, clean all the electrical connections to and from the starter, pull the starter and strip and clean it, and throw a can of liquid starter in your glovebox. A good service for the car wouldn’t go amiss either. Your car’s given you a warning and winter is the time when a poor starting and charging system will show up and let you down.

[James O’Hara]

if I were you I would clean the wire connections you can use battery terminal cleaner and a wire brush but, don’t get that stuff on anything you value and wear safety glasses. I would also suggest flowing out the starter with compressed air unless you feel like pulling it off and taking it apart and cleaning it. they are normally pretty simple and easy to clean. If you tear it apart I would lube the shaft lightly with a silicone based grease.

If it ever does it again simply tapping on the solenoid can be enough to get it unstuck. It is not a bad idea to replace if if you are going to do that though you may want to try take it apart and clean it. It will save you a lot of money.

[Author]

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