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I work at a Chrysler Dealership as an hourly lube tech, but every other guy in the shop is flat rate and I refuse to work flat rate because I’ve been there almost 3 years and I’ve seen what the flat rate system does to both the techs and the work they put out.
Here are some reasons I’ve found that flat rate is bad:
1. Enables favoritism and feeding techs
2. Enables service writers and managers to starve out techs they either don’t like or who don’t go along with the politics of the shop
3.Creates the concept of gravy jobs that pay great and are easy (brakes, fluid flushes, etc) and ** jobs that pay next to nothing but take half the day (pretty much anything warranty, water and air leaks, etc.).
4. Encourages techs to rush through jobs and cut corners to get things done faster, which normally results in butchered car (i.e. cutting or bending a bracket out of the way instead of unbolting it)
5. Selling work vehicles don’t need (calling brake pads at 5mm because “the shop is slow”. I remember one of the techs telling me a story about a former service manager telling him “when the shop is really dead in the winter, just call the rear main seal on a car under warranty and just spray it off with brake clean and don’t do anything else”)
6. Discourages techs from helping each other (I don’t get paid to help you)
7. Lets dealerships unload their losses and slow times on the tech (Oh business is slow, well you’re just not upselling enough on the cars that do come in, or Oh you didn’t diag. that car right the first time, well now you get to fix it for free)
8. Creates a cutthroat work environment (i.e. the shop favorite is getting all the gravy work and the rest of the guys get stuck with warranty jobs)
9. Undermines the value of the work techs do and makes customers think everything can be done fast and done correctly (which it can’t in most cases, you can be efficient at what you do, but if your just slamming through jobs you’re obviously cutting corners somewhere or not actually doing the work.)
10. If you lose your ass on a job or have a pay with low hours you are simply told you need to hustle more.
11. If you ask for a raise you are told ” you want a raise, turn more hours” and it becomes about quantity over quality.
Most arguments I’ve heard against flat rate are “Well if you pay a guy by the hour he’ll just goof around and play on his phone all day and not do anything” My answer to that is talk to the employee and if things don’t change, fire them. But the current solution to getting rid of a bad tech (which could just mean a tech who’s just not fast enough) is to”starve them out” and make them quit, which employers like because then they don’t have to pay unemployment.
I think flat rate was just a way for companies to not pay techs the actual time it takes to do something and just slap a number on every job to where “this can be done in this amount of time, every time, no exceptions” and that just doesn’t work in the real world. Plus when they calculate the labor times they use brand new vehicles that haven’t had a change to rust and experience the abuse people put their cars through.
In order for this industry to improve flat rate need to die and either hourly pay or salary plus commission need to take its place. I think that the only way you can make a good living off of flat rate is if you are feed gravy work, are not honest, or are in a shop that is literally always busy (which doesn’t exist, there are always slow days and weeks. Winter anyone?) I have seen though in shops with both flat rate and hourly guys that when it’s slow they’ll have the hourly guy running around and doing whatever (LOFs, state inspections, install mudflaps, etc.) while there’s two flat rate guys that have been standing around half the afternoon with no work.
So honestly I think if they went to straight hourly they would probably expect even more work from you than if you’re flat rate, because if they see you standing around and your being paid by the hour, you’ll probably either get sent home or be given some shit job to do (take out trash, clean, etc.) Just another thought that crossed my mind But the whole point of this long rant is that for the industry to improve the flat rate system needs to go. It’s pushing people away from becoming techs, it’s driving current techs out of the field, and it’s really doing a disservice to the automotive business as a whole. This whole idea of “everything needs to be done fast” needs to die along with the flat rate system. A tech’s main focus going into a repair should be “How can I fix this car to the best of my ability” not “How can I rush through this job and beat the labor time”
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One point I should make is that it is also the fault of the consumer. The consumer only cares about how much it is going to cost and doesn’t place any value on quality of job. The dealership environment makes the situation worse by eliminating interaction between the tech and the customer to the point of where the customer really doesn’t know what is involved in the work being carried out.
I have typically chosen to work straight time, but have found that in high volume high pressure shops you will be forced to work at a pace as if you were flat rate and not reap any reward for that. They also gauge your productivity on against the flat rate bench mark as well which may not be fair either depending on what type of work the management hands out to you.
An the high volume high pressure shop if you throw a productivity bonus in plus favoritism in terms of jobs being allocated to certain techs you in essence will see the exact same type of un-co-operative work place as you see in flat rate. The techs don’t want to help each other because any time lost will reduce their bonus.
I do agree what has to die is having too many techs in a shop because management doesn’t pay them when they are not working. Or from management gouging techs on certain jobs where book time is insufficient.
Yes the hourly with bonus or salary with bonus is more fair to everyone.But you still need managers that are fair and have reasonable expectations.
They need to treat techs as a financial asset not a liability. Techs in turn have to be professional, accountable and responsible.
Management has to be fair, and open and understanding.I agree with a lot of what you are saying. However many of those issues have to do with being management, moral, and quality of technicians in which a different form of pay might not repair, but I agree, flat rate encourages a lot of it.
My beef with Flat Rate is that often you find yourself doing things that you aren’t getting paid for. Also, it is suppose to be average technician’s average time, but it’s not. I can bet you that if you took all the flat rate techs in the country and averaged their flagged hours, and then averaged the time they were working, they wouldn’t be making an hour for an hour. A lot of the time is spent on piddly crap, waiting on the vehicle to be ready, waiting on the service writer to finish up with another customer so you can explain what he needs to tell your customer. How about meetings and training they don’t pay you for? How about them wanting you to talk to a customer or something, get prices, ect. Some recalls and warranty work times are a joke.
The good thing is once you get good and fast, you can make more money. Most businesses will let you work all you want. You don’t have a boss cracking a whip over your head trying to make you work faster. Overall though, there are more con’s than pro’s.
I also agree with a lot of what you’re saying, but as was stated above, most of your complaints sound like the fault of poor management of your shop. You will have the shop “princesses” that get fed and don’t get stuck with wind noises/rattles etc, but as you progress to journeyman then master tech, you will have the confidence and clout to stand up to such practices. And if you get canned, you have to ask yourself, was that the place you REALLY belonged after all? Shop politics is something you have to become very adept at unfortunately. What worked for me was to be the best tech I could, try your best to not make enemies, and prove to your boss that keeping you happy is in his and his department’s best interest. Make yourself into a good asset. Assuming this is what you want to do for a career…. Are you SURE you want to stick with this ? 😛 I’m always on the hunt for getting out somehow.
Flat rate also varies from state to state. In CA I feel like we’re really lucky. Techs with their own tools get double the state minimum wage by law guaranteed. Also, we now get that regardless of flagged hours due to the recent lawsuit a few years back. At the moment, that’s double 10.50 or $21 and hour. And because of that lawsuit, we’re not conventional flat rate, we’re hourly employees with production bonus. So I can flag 50 hours working 40, and they’d base my wage on me being 125% efficient. So my effective wage would be (x)125%. Lets say I made $25 hourly and flagged 50 hours. That’s $1250. What they do now is take the wage (my hypothetical $25) and multiply it by your efficiency (125%) which is $31.25. 31.25 multiplied by actual hours worked (40 hours) is $1250. A complicated way to pay the same wages. And if I flag less hours then clocked, I would just get that $21/hour regardless of how little I flagged.
Also, I wouldn’t take the retort “if you want a raise, flag more hours” response from any boss. I would look at him and say “Really?” with all the scorn and disdain my body language could allow. My response would be “you want me to flag more hours, bring me better work and fix the problems in the shop like some of living like tiny tims while watching the shop princesses ride the gravy train”. I’ve made my bosses eyes widen and his ears steam on a few occasions and lived tell about it. 🙂
You make some valid points. When it’s good life’s good. When it’s bad, usually it’s really bad.
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[quote=”AcuraTech” post=181848]I also agree with a lot of what you’re saying, but as was stated above, most of your complaints sound like the fault of poor management of your shop. You will have the shop “princesses” that get fed and don’t get stuck with wind noises/rattles etc, but as you progress to journeyman then master tech, you will have the confidence and clout to stand up to such practices. And if you get canned, you have to ask yourself, was that the place you REALLY belonged after all? Shop politics is something you have to become very adept at unfortunately. What worked for me was to be the best tech I could, try your best to not make enemies, and prove to your boss that keeping you happy is in his and his department’s best interest. Make yourself into a good asset. Assuming this is what you want to do for a career…. Are you SURE you want to stick with this ? 😛 I’m always on the hunt for getting out somehow.
Flat rate also varies from state to state. In CA I feel like we’re really lucky. Techs with their own tools get double the state minimum wage by law guaranteed. Also, we now get that regardless of flagged hours due to the recent lawsuit a few years back. At the moment, that’s double 10.50 or $21 and hour. And because of that lawsuit, we’re not conventional flat rate, we’re hourly employees with production bonus. So I can flag 50 hours working 40, and they’d base my wage on me being 125% efficient. So my effective wage would be (x)125%. Lets say I made $25 hourly and flagged 50 hours. That’s $1250. What they do now is take the wage (my hypothetical $25) and multiply it by your efficiency (125%) which is $31.25. 31.25 multiplied by actual hours worked (40 hours) is $1250. A complicated way to pay the same wages. And if I flag less hours then clocked, I would just get that $21/hour regardless of how little I flagged.
Also, I wouldn’t take the retort “if you want a raise, flag more hours” response from any boss. I would look at him and say “Really?” with all the scorn and disdain my body language could allow. My response would be “you want me to flag more hours, bring me better work and fix the problems in the shop like some of living like tiny tims while watching the shop princesses ride the gravy train”. I’ve made my bosses eyes widen and his ears steam on a few occasions and lived tell about it. :)[/quote]
“Princesses” lol. Good term, because they turn into little biches when they don’t get their way and they have to keep their nose in the boss’s crack to keep that going. At some point, that will come to an end for them, and it won’t be on their terms. Those who lift the heaviest weight get the strongest. Those princesses aren’t getting stronger, in fact they are getting weaker, and in the end, have no value.
To increase your pay, you need to increase your value. You do that by being able to do the job that others can’t do, being able to do it better, faster. Those who lift the heaviest weight get the strongest. Good techs are hard to find. Be a good tech, keep your options open. I’ve been at one Nissan dealer for almost 4 years now. Before that I was at independents for 13 years. Except a short time in 2005 I never really made money. Even at this dealership, I was getting screwed for the most part up until recently. I took positions that nobody else would do. I took on individual jobs that nobody wanted. I take whatever is dispatched to me. Some of those jobs that beat me up real bad, I lost my butt, but in the end it made me a stronger tech. I’ll tell you though, they did me wrong more than a few times. I almost quit several times, and would have been well justified in doing so. But I stayed and made it work for me. Work the system, don’t let the system work you.
It’s funny. You would think that to become a successful technician would mean being really good at diagnostics and repair of vehicles, but that’s not even half of it. That’s only two parts of the skill set that is required to really make it.
Flat rate is a system of pay that gained popularity during the depression as a way of simply keeping the shops in business and staff employed.
Especially in large dealership groups where they can shave a couple of points off things like PDIs and make millions more a year, management and ownership are under no pressure to change. Why would they? They have a never ending army of slaves fighting for their freedom.
As long as there’s guys in the business who are happy chasing the carrot that is flat rate, it’s going to stick around.
Until techs organize it’s never going to happen. How many other trades have union representation as low as the automotive trades? None.
[quote=”DaFirnz” post=181985]
Until techs organize it’s never going to happen. How many other trades have union representation as low as the automotive trades? None.[/quote]
Correct. Plus, look at other trades out there. We spend 50k plus as technicians to buy tools to do our jobs. Most hvac tech’s are 3k into tools at most. And down here most of them make more than we do. Or other trades such as an electrician. It’s insane the amount we as an individual have to put in to our industry to succeed and the penny’s we get in return compared to other trades.
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Flat rate or some kind of incentive is the only way to keep techs producing. After 43 years in the business I know this for a fact. I have 4 hourly techs in the shop right now and they average about 15hrs a week.
[quote=”Yak” post=182077]Flat rate or some kind of incentive is the only way to keep techs producing. After 43 years in the business I know this for a fact. I have 4 hourly techs in the shop right now and they average about 15hrs a week.[/quote]
Jesus. No work or no will to work? I flagged close to that myself just in today
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[quote=”Cammed 05″ post=182130][quote=”Yak” post=182077]Flat rate or some kind of incentive is the only way to keep techs producing. After 43 years in the business I know this for a fact. I have 4 hourly techs in the shop right now and they average about 15hrs a week.[/quote]
Jesus. No work or no will to work? I flagged close to that myself just in today
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Lack of proper training. They come out of the for profit tech schools with little real knowledge about the auto repair business.
Flat rate isn’t that bad. There are some advantages and if we changed, you would soon see a lot more than just the pay change.
Imagine HOURLY. Don’t be mistaken, your boss will still expect you to pull work, as he does now, except now he has an incentive to crack the whip and be on everyone’s case. Imagine you lose your butt on a job that doesn’t go right, now you have to answer for it for why your production is low. It could make it harder for newer techs as they will be getting fired for low production. Also, your boss will try to cut hours when it gets even a little slow. Not to mention things like “no overtime” rules and such. The freedom to “work all you want” will be gone. The leisure to take a break whenever you feel the need will be gone. A lot of people will get fired easier, and you can almost expect layoffs whenever the economy drops or we go into slow season. You are trading one set of stresses for another. Think about it, how often do you hear about layoffs in our industry? It’s usually pretty easy to find a job too compared to so many other industries.
Someone mentioned the investment in tools. Yeah, it sucks but once you have it, it makes you more valuable, gives you options, and prevents fly-by-nights from “taking a crack at it” for a job. Sounds nuts but more than once I’ve had managers come ask me if they could hire someone in and let him work out of my toolbox. Oh…. hell…. no…..For one thing, I don’t want someone who doesn’t buy tools to touch mine, they will get damaged or dissappear. Secondly, what does it say about someone who doesn’t have tools? By letting somoene in without tools, it opens up our jobs to more competition, and you can bet they will be gravy sponges because easy work is all they can do. It’s like, no buddy, fork it out or get on that truck and sign your life away.
[quote=”Yak” post=182077]Flat rate or some kind of incentive is the only way to keep techs producing. After 43 years in the business I know this for a fact. I have 4 hourly techs in the shop right now and they average about 15hrs a week.[/quote]
Well I think unfair labor times are largely to blame for this ever increasing “hour shortage” problem. Cars get more and more complex, and labor times just seem to shrink and shrink. They want to pay you less to do more, but I know that’s not just the auto industry. You say that techs just don’t produce without some kind of push or incentive, but what do you mean when you say “keep them producing”? I’m of the mindset that doing something fast and doing it right at the same time are not possible, and while I do believe that you should be as efficient at doing the repair as you can be, but I don’t believe in rushing through to get a job done because a customer is in a hurry. If they don’t have the time to get their car fixed right, then I don’t want them as my customer.
What is the problem with these hourly techs? They don’t know what they are doing? Are they are goofing off instead of working? Are they unnecessarily milking the jobs they do get? There is this very pervasive sentiment that people who are paid hourly are lazy or slow, but I think that problem lies more on the unrealistic time expectations that are placed on you as a tech. I’m not making excuses for techs who don’t belong in the field because they either don’t know what they’re doing or don’t care, but I do think that the job is stressful enough, being pressured to fix every car as fast as you can and fix it right (which again, is not the way things should be), techs shouldn’t have to worry about losing their ass and not being about to pay their bills because they didn’t turn enough hours that week. The business owner should be the one taking the loss for slow times, but instead dealers can unload the slow times on the techs and just sit back and say “Well, there’s no work so you have to stand around for free.” I would rather see the techs have the power to screw over the shop with an hourly or salary plus commission based pay rather than the shop screwing the techs with flat rape, but then again I am always on the side of the little guy, the underdog, whoever has less power.
[quote=”Redneckmanwv99@yahoo.com” post=182461][quote=”Yak” post=182077]Flat rate or some kind of incentive is the only way to keep techs producing. After 43 years in the business I know this for a fact. I have 4 hourly techs in the shop right now and they average about 15hrs a week.[/quote]
Well I think unfair labor times are largely to blame for this ever increasing “hour shortage” problem. Cars get more and more complex, and labor times just seem to shrink and shrink. They want to pay you less to do more, but I know that’s not just the auto industry. You say that techs just don’t produce without some kind of push or incentive, but what do you mean when you say “keep them producing”? I’m of the mindset that doing something fast and doing it right at the same time are not possible, and while I do believe that you should be as efficient at doing the repair as you can be, but I don’t believe in rushing through to get a job done because a customer is in a hurry. If they don’t have the time to get their car fixed right, then I don’t want them as my customer.
What is the problem with these hourly techs? They don’t know what they are doing? Are they are goofing off instead of working? Are they unnecessarily milking the jobs they do get? There is this very pervasive sentiment that people who are paid hourly are lazy or slow, but I think that problem lies more on the unrealistic time expectations that are placed on you as a tech. I’m not making excuses for techs who don’t belong in the field because they either don’t know what they’re doing or don’t care, but I do think that the job is stressful enough, being pressured to fix every car as fast as you can and fix it right (which again, is not the way things should be), techs shouldn’t have to worry about losing their ass and not being about to pay their bills because they didn’t turn enough hours that week. The business owner should be the one taking the loss for slow times, but instead dealers can unload the slow times on the techs and just sit back and say “Well, there’s no work so you have to stand around for free.” I would rather see the techs have the power to screw over the shop with an hourly or salary plus commission based pay rather than the shop screwing the techs with flat rape, but then again I am always on the side of the little guy, the underdog, whoever has less power.[/quote]
let’s see, you want to screw over the shop??/ That will get you far! You’ve spent three years as a lube tech?? And you have all the answers?? When we get slow the first ones sent home are the hourly techs. There is no difference between, a dealer, McDonalds or a landscape contractor, someone started the business to make money and if employees don’t produce, they’re gone. You, sir, have a lot to learn!
I never said I wanted to screw over anyone, I want to earn the money I get paid. I’m saying that all the power to screw employees over is in the hands of the managers and owners, and I blame the flat rate system almost entirely for the reasons I’ve listed before. I would love to see techs unionize, that way employees have an hour guarantee and there is no way to starve out techs management doesn’t like by giving him all the crap work, and just more benefits for the employee all around, and less power in the hands of owners and managers. A lot of people will argue against unions, saying they protect the bad employees along with the good ones, but I would rather protect bad employees than bad managers and business owners.
What if McDonalds said “You get paid by how many burgers you make, and if its slow you don’t get paid but still have to be here”. In what other profession are employees made to stay at work with no pay when there is nothing to do? If a business can’t afford to pay an employee for every single minute that they are there they either need to have less employees or not be in business. Flat rape allows the businesses to unload its ineptitude of not being about to keep enough work through the door onto the tech while they just sit back.
You speak of employees either producing or being fired, but I don’t think its techs aren’t producing, they just aren’t producing to the unrealistic flat rape manual, which is completely skewed because brand new cars are used that have never been exposed to the world and had time to rust and what not. So already you are setting people up to fail, but then you get customers riding service writers to get their car done, so the service writer makes unreasonable demands to get the car done faster, so techs don’t care and just slam things together to get it out the door.
An example of this is during a brake job they don’t grease caliper slides, don’t replace rattle clips, don’t put anti-seize on anything, etc., they just slap the pads and rotors on, throw the wheel back on, run the lug nuts down with an impact instead of torquing them properly. Or they replace an outer tie rod, ball joint, etc. and don’t grease it if it has a grease fitting, again the fault of this whole “lets just get it done and move on” mentality. I see this with most of the techs that I work with and I know that flat rate breeds this attitude towards auto repair, and it’s truly killing the service industry.
By the way, the reason I’m still a lube tech is because not long after I started doing this job I found out that I hate how stupid new cars are becoming (everything has to have a module, things are harder and harder to work on, etc.) and have been biding my time ever since then until I either save up enough money to quit or find another job. I’ve learned quite a lot in 3 years though, but the biggest thing is “I don’t wanna fix everybody else’s cars, I just wanna work on my own and do it the way I want” I’m tired of working on cars that 95% of the owners don’t care about.
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