During VSS replacement, broke bolt head…

[T Porcelli]

Hey y’all,
My 96 Civic Hatch speedometer and odometer began failing intermittently a few weeks ago. I watched Eric’s vid about replacing the VSS. I figured that this would be an easy first step in troubleshooting. Got a new VSS cheap and went about trying to loosen the bolt holding the old one in. Well, the bolt was very stubborn and I applied too much torque and broke the head off. Not discouraged, I sprayed PB into the area for three days, letting it soak in for several hours to loosen the remaining threads, and hitting it again later each day. I then went about trying to extract the remaining bolt using a left-hand drill bit and easy out extractor set. Well, due to small working area, my center punch missed the center and I ended up drilling to the side of center. I tried using the easy out but couldn’t get it moving. Not willing to quit, I tapped out the off centered hole I had drilled to match it up with a machine screw.

With a few washers I was able to get it to screw down flush to hold the VSS in. Well, the VSS stays in pretty well, but the speedo is still not working.

My question is this: is there any risk of damage to the trans or alternator if I just unplug the VSS until I can troubleshoot the wiring to the speedo and ECU?

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

Topic

[Its me]

You should be fine to leave it in for now…

Also, the first step should have been diagnosis with a scan tool. Simply plug in the scan tool and see what the ECU is being told the vehicles speed is. If you get speed on the scanner then the VSS is good and the problem is the instrument cluster/speedometer or wiring somewhere.. this should now be your next step…

Karl

[T Porcelli]

Thanks Karl,
I don’t currently have an OBD scanner. Is there a low priced model you would recommend?

[Its me]

I highly recommend the Harbor Freight model… around $100 US and use a 20 to 25% off coupon (easily found)…. It is a good budget model that does quite a bit..

You can go cheaper with a blue tooth OBD reader and use the torque app, but I personally prefer seeing all the data like the HF model provides…

JMHO

Karl

[T Porcelli]

Thanks Karl,

I looked at the Harbor Freight models and saw a few. There are two that look good:

http://www.harborfreight.com/can-obd-ii-deluxe-scan-tool-60693-html.html

and

http://www.harborfreight.com/http-www-harborfreight-com-can-obd-ii-scan-tool-with-abs-60794-html.html?ccdenc=eyJjb2RlIjoiNTA4NDU0MTIiLCJza3UiOiI2MDc5NCIsImlzIjoiOTkuOTkiLCJwcm9kdWN0X2lkIjoiOTcwMiJ9

Which one are you recommending?

Thanks

[Peter]

Harbor Freight has some good stuff, but I would not buy a scan tool from them…

This is the scan tool I’ve been using for a a year or two:

http://www.amazon.com/Equus-3160-Professional-Diagnostic-Vehicles/dp/B001QIUGVI

This scan tool may be almost $200 currently, but it has live data, is bi-directional, and reads both srs and abs on most foreign and domestic vehicles. Also worth noting, it does obd2/CAN out of the box (and is also capible of doing OBD1, but you need to buy an extra adapter kit to get the adapters (which cost about as much as the 3160 by itself…). Finally, it also gives you the code definitions on screen, is capable of reading manufacturer specific codes (engine, tranny, and other odd specialty codes), and can log live data (and graph it out on the device on the fly).

If you can’t justify spending that much on a scan tool (I couldn’t for a while), you can’t go wrong with this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Equus-3030-Innova-Diagnostic-Vehicles/dp/B000EVYGQY

I bought this one before I picked up my 3160, and I still keep it in my road tool box. It doesn’t give you code definitions, but it’s fairly solid. Also, despite this being one of their consumer grade scan tools it does scan for and clear abs codes.

Any ideas on how you’re getting that broken bolt out yet? If you can thread a bolt into the hole you drilled, consider hiring a welder to carefully weld a bolt into the one with the broken head (to give you another shot at extracting it).

[EricTheCarGuy]

[quote=”ToyotaKarl” post=110588]You should be fine to leave it in for now…

Also, the first step should have been diagnosis with a scan tool. Simply plug in the scan tool and see what the ECU is being told the vehicles speed is. If you get speed on the scanner then the VSS is good and the problem is the instrument cluster/speedometer or wiring somewhere.. this should now be your next step…

Karl[/quote]

+1 on this. I think I might have even covered that in the video. That said, keep us updated on your scanner search and how that part of your diagnosis goes.

[Its me]

These are much newer than the one I have, but I would recommend the one with ABS… “In for a penny, in for a pound” is my rationale…

For $100 you get quite a bit…

Here is also something I would like to pass on, I have a Snap on MODIS, had an MT2500 (Snap on cartridge scan tool) still have a Toyota Scan tool, a generic code reader and a Harbor Freight Scanner…. The first one I reach for in general situations such as this is the Harbor Freight Scanner….

JMHO

-Karl

[T Porcelli]

Thanks for the feedback. I further researched scanners, aiming at Acrtron because Eric used an Actron in the VSS vid. I found the Actron P9580A on Ebay for $100, so went for it. I chose that one because of the “code connect” feature which lists the top fixes for each dx code. However, the code that came up did not have the “code connect” available….
The only code that comes up is P0705 (Transmission Range Sensor Circuit malfunction).
This seems logical because when I shift from reverse to drive the speedo jumps around. As far as I can tell, the sensor seems to be in the shift console.
The manual describes a precise way to adjust the sensor so that the gear on the shift matches the trans.
Before I take apart the console I was wondering if anyone else has worked with this code on a 96 civic, and if so what the results were. As always, any advice is welcome. This is my first experience working with “newer” hondas. I had done lots of work on 76, 84, and 88s…all pretty straightforward….never needed dx codes for those…

[EricTheCarGuy]

I don’t think the range sensor being out of adjustment would have anything to do with the operation of the speedo. If the indicators on your dash light up with the correct gear position then the sensor is adjusted correctly as the sensor also sends that info to the dash.

If however there is an issue with the speed sensor, it’s connections, or wiring, this can cause the speedo to go nuts and also possibly set the range sensor code because the computer is getting ‘confusing’ information due to the faulty speedo signal.

[Erin]

If the VSS is not putting out a signal or if the PCM is not getting it, wouldn’t that cause the trans to have REAL sloppy shifts (if it’s an auto)? I am just going by an experience on a 99 Cougar. If you unplug it and all the sudden car shifts like you are in a bumper car derby, reconnect it yesterday.

Those bolt extractors, I have always kind of wondered about those. I mean if a bolt is ceased in tight enough to break, wouldn’t removing it with any method cause a lot of other damage? Plus under the hood, there is seldom room to do anything, let alone get some extractor in. Good times.

For cheap scanner, I picked up one at autozone for $40 but it gives ONLY the codes and takes a couple minutes to retrieve them. Yeah it is slow. For deciphering the codes, anyone with even a basic cell phone can get them. Type (for example) p0302 and right away it comes up cylinder 2 misfire.

[T Porcelli]

Thanks Eric,

I guess it’s on to the wiring. In your experience is it likely that the wiring issue is at the connector to the VSS? That was where I thought I’d start. I’ve not done wiring troubleshooting before, so will dig into the manual and get started over the weekend.

The speedo seems to work from a cold start when the weather is below 70 degrees, and works well until I stop the car. When I restart it, the speedo acts funny, sticking at about 20mph or jumping around. So this suggests to me that the wiring is shorting out when the engine compartment heats up, maybe bending with the heat until an exposed side of the wire grounds out. However, the engine compartment doesn’t seem to get hot enough at the VSS connector to cause a problem, and when the speedo is working well the shifting returns to normal.

As a side note, that may be related, I had replaced the passenger side transaxle a month before the prob began. It was done at Car-X. I considered that this problem could be related to the magnetic signal emanating from the driveshaft. Additionally, I suspect that they didn’t use Honda trans fluid when they refilled the system; other posts report probs with generic trans fluid and shifting.

Well, will update when I get back to it. Thanks for the feedback!

[T Porcelli]

Thanks 99 for your feedback,

The bolt extractor might have worked well if I had punched it direct center, but I missed the center and that’s where it became more complicated. I agree that the cramped engine compartment makes it difficult to get an accurate center punch and extraction. But after tapping what was left of the bolt I was able to use a smaller bolt to lock it down.

Regarding the OBD scanner, I like the Actron 9580A. It gives real time stats and is pretty quick to pull the codes. I think that the reason it doesn’t give the fix for the P0705 code is because of the many factors that result in trans communication confusion.
I think that Eric’s suggestion to get into the wiring from the VSS will lead me to a frayed wire casing, which will hopefully be easy to repair with a wire splice.

[EricTheCarGuy]

I don’t think the axle would have had anything to do with it. That said, I just had a thought. Sometimes when an alternator goes bad it allows AC voltage into the electrical system. I’ve seen this mess with the speedo at times because that’s a signal that is very sensitive to that type of interference. Perhaps before you dig into the wiring you should check the charging system to make sure it’s operating correctly.

http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/solving-automotive-electrical-problems

[T Porcelli]

Thanks Eric,
I checked the wiring diagrams and it looks like this might be a relatively easy configuration to test. It looks like the leads from the VSS have a short run to the ECU, both which seem accessible without too much floor gymnastics. I’ll start with them and if that doesn’t pan out, will review your vid on testing the alternator.

It seems that you might be on to something with the alternator; when I first start the car on a cold morning, there is an audible high pitched rattling sound, like tiny bearings rattling in a can. It stops when the car is warmed up. I had considered that this might be related to the alternator/belt. I don’t recall if this started before or after the speedo malfunction though.
It sounds like the last time that I heard a water pump go out after the bearings wore out (on a different car – 64 Dodge Custom 880).

Thanks all for the feedback and suggestions….will update again after the wire tests.

[Author]

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