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Desperately need Help with Stalling Chrysler 300M

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  • #851966
    Matt BrandsemaMatt Brandsema
    Participant

      So I have a 2000 Chrysler 300M and It is stalling and surging when it is warm at low RPM’s. First it only happened when coming to a stop, but now it just happens when warm and just idling. If I put any kind of load on it at all when it is warm it stalls. I seriously cannot figure out what is wrong. I even paid an “expert” on “justanswer.com” to help me out because I kept coming up empty. Well, he just gave up on me so no I am SOL. I have replaced to many things. Here is a list in no particular order.

      1. Replaced front O2 sensors
      2. Replaced Crank Sensor
      3. Replaced All ignition coils and Sparkplugs
      4. I thought it may be an EGR valve stuck open, so I removed it and used compressed air in the valve. The valve was closed. I then put it back on and ran the engine with it unplugged. It made no difference.
      5. I then thought perhaps an accessory is binding up and causing a load on the engine. I removed the belts and spun all pulleys by hand, nothing was binding up or stiff.
      6. Replaced IAC valve
      7. Replaced air filter
      8. Adjusted idle speed so more air enters the engine. For awhile I thought it was an air issue because it does not happen when the cars RPM’s are higher and it seemed to get slightly better when I replaced the air filter. But no go
      9. I unplugged the coolant temp sensor when it was cold and it BEHAVED as if it was warm by stalling and surging up and down. I know that when you unplug the coolant temp it defaults to a “warm” coolant condition. I found this very interesting. I then replaced the coolant temp sensor, but it didn’t fix the problem.
      10. I checked for vacuum leaks, but there are none, and even if there were the car has a MAP sensor on the intake itself so it is usually pretty robust against vacuum leaks.
      11. Replaced the MAP sensor.
      12. Turned over the engine by hand to determine if the starer motor was hanging up and putting an extra load on the engine. Everything turned fine.
      13. Cleaned out throttle body and IAC port with cleaner.
      14. I checked the fuel pressure while the car is stalling and it does not drop at all. It is within the spec in the service manual so the issue isn’t the fuel pump.
      15. Replaced fuel injectors.

      So there it is. The long laundry list of things I have done to this car with no success. I still haven’t replaced the cam shaft position sensor, perhaps it is worth a try. I do not have a scope to look at the waveforms to determine if this is the cause so I would just be guessing.

    Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 31 total)
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    • #851967
      Bryan HallBryan
      Participant

        When the engine is stone cold, does it run well? This problem ONLY manifests when the engine is warm?

        Are there any engine codes at all?

        You’ve covered the vacuum leaks.. and while the fuel pressure might be stable, I can’t help but wonder if it might not be that.

        If the CPS was out of whack, that’d definitely throw a code. If you don’t have a code, I’d almost say it was a fuelling issue still. But I have trouble with that, because the pressure is solid. Even so, you’re running out of options there. When warmed up and it’s chugging and trying to stall… why not try this? Shut the car off and turn the key to the ‘on’ position several times before trying to start it. if it starts and runs ok for a few seconds, perhaps it’s a fueling issue after all.

        -Hinoki

        #851968
        Matt BrandsemaMatt Brandsema
        Participant

          [quote=”Hinoki” post=159460]When the engine is stone cold, does it run well? This problem ONLY manifests when the engine is warm?

          Are there any engine codes at all?

          You’ve covered the vacuum leaks.. and while the fuel pressure might be stable, I can’t help but wonder if it might not be that.

          If the CPS was out of whack, that’d definitely throw a code. If you don’t have a code, I’d almost say it was a fuelling issue still. But I have trouble with that, because the pressure is solid. Even so, you’re running out of options there. When warmed up and it’s chugging and trying to stall… why not try this? Shut the car off and turn the key to the ‘on’ position several times before trying to start it. if it starts and runs ok for a few seconds, perhaps it’s a fueling issue after all.

          -Hinoki[/quote]

          Yes it is perfectly fine while cold and there are no codes or pending codes. It starts fine when the engine is cold but when warm it has a hard time starting after stalling. I will do as you suggest when it is warm and see of it gets any better. Thank you for your reply!

          I also forgot to mention that the engine misfires when revving down to an idle from a higher rpm.

          #851969
          Bryan HallBryan
          Participant

            Another thought would be the coolant temp sensor. I’ve not heard of a failure mode in which it’d reflect an accurate temperature on the dashboard, but report improperly to the ECU, but I suppose that thing being knackered would cause this sort of thing too. As in it’s trying to run a hot car on a cold car fuel / air mix…

            #851970
            Andrew HarrisAndrew Harris
            Participant

              1) How did you confirm there is no Vacuum Leak? Do you have a scan tool? or just a code reader?
              Verify if the idle speed motor has closed the idle passage, by putting your finger in the AIS passage in the throttle body.
              If there is vacuum present and steps read 0 on a scanner, check for vacuum leaks around the intake manifold and vacuum lines.
              2) Have you checked the mechanical timing of the engine. I do believe this engine has a timing belt,.

              #851971
              Bryan HallBryan
              Participant

                If it were the timing, wouldn’t it be buggered even when it was cold? Not arguing, just genuinely curious.

                #851973
                Andrew HarrisAndrew Harris
                Participant

                  Most likely yes however the engine controller may mask the problem by using a different strategy cold versus hot. Seeing as he has tried a whole lot of things it probably wouldn’t hurt just to verify that the mechanical timing Is good. I have seen a Toyota 4.7L jump a tooth or two out and it caused the engine to misfire at idle and run good at higher rpm or vice versa its been a couple of years since I fixed that one. Point being is anything is possible. That Toyota ate my lunch because it ran so good except for the random misfire.

                  #851978
                  Matt BrandsemaMatt Brandsema
                  Participant

                    To confirm there was no vacuum leak, I sprayed around the intake and vacuum lines and throttle body with carb cleaner and listened for an RPM change. There was none. I have a code reader that gives me information to SOME live data. It isn’t a super high tech one though. So I have no IAC information.

                    I have not checked the timing, that will be my next step next time I can get to the shop. Thank you for your replies!

                    #852127
                    Matt BrandsemaMatt Brandsema
                    Participant

                      Okay so I checked the timing and it is in the exact same spot I left it at when I did the timing belt many months ago. I have attached pictures for you guys to see. Now I have NO clue what the hell could be wrong. The only thing I haven’t replaced is the cam sensor, but I feel like the engine would throw a code for a cam sensor. Perhaps I should do a compression test and leakdown test???

                      #852131
                      Fernando cunhaFernando cunha
                      Participant

                        can i ask you is there fuel smell when you try to start the car?
                        remove plugs check how wet they are.
                        i don’t undestand where is the logic in replacing stuff
                        when nothing is tested .
                        you said you have brand new injectors!
                        don’t mean that 1 is not leaking.
                        i would be checking
                        good luck

                        #852132
                        Matt BrandsemaMatt Brandsema
                        Participant

                          [quote=”CordiaMad” post=159624]can i ask you is there fuel smell when you try to start the car?[/quote]

                          Nope no fuel smell.

                          Some things I forgot to mention.
                          -At idle the engine doesn’t misfire, but during RPM transitions, such as raising it to 2500 RPM at idle, or letting it go back down to idle speed from 2500 RPM it misfires badly. I will also hear random pops when holding at 2500 RPM, but it is very noticeable when going DOWN to an idle RPM from a higher RPM. Hope this makes sense
                          -One time I was showing a buddy of mine what was happening and he said he smelt gas from the exhaust after revving. This was right after it misfired a bunch of times so I chocked it up to the misfire not completely combusting the gasoline in the cylinders.

                          #852143
                          Fernando cunhaFernando cunha
                          Participant

                            it just sounds like flooding to me.i would also check that your afm is not unplugged

                            #852148
                            Matt BrandsemaMatt Brandsema
                            Participant

                              [quote=”CordiaMad” post=159636]it just sounds like flooding to me.i would also check that your afm is not unplugged[/quote]

                              I also thought it was flooding, I thought perhaps one of the fuel injectors was leaking. I replaced them with remanufactured ones and it behaved exactly the same. The long term fuel trims are around -10% so I am not convinced it is flooding.

                              Also this car has a MAP sensor to measure airflow, and I have already replaced it. :

                              #852151
                              ryleyryley
                              Participant

                                This trick worked for me on different car. I believe the upper O2 Sensor is important for the ECU when the engine is warm, try unplugging it and see if the problem will go away, if not try the downsteam. (clear codes each time.)

                                If it still happens, remove the upper O2. If that fixes your problem, put the upper O2 back and remove the downsteam O2 and is if problem comes back.

                                Reson for the extra step, is to attempt to see if the Cat or muffler is plugged.

                                Just because the part is new, doesn’t mean it’s good.

                                #852152
                                Matt BrandsemaMatt Brandsema
                                Participant

                                  [quote=”bleach” post=159644]This trick worked for me on different car. I believe the upper O2 Sensor is important for the ECU when the engine is warm, try unplugging it and see if the problem will go away, if not try the downsteam. (clear codes each time.)

                                  If it still happens, remove the upper O2. If that fixes your problem, put the upper O2 back and remove the downsteam O2 and is if problem comes back.

                                  Reson for the extra step, is to attempt to see if the Cat or muffler is plugged.

                                  Just because the part is new, doesn’t mean it’s good.[/quote]

                                  Awesome thanks! I will try this out and report back

                                  #852154
                                  MatthewMatthew
                                  Participant

                                    If removing the O2 sensors don’t prove out a plugged cat, i agree with ArmedsouthernEr to be really sure about timing. What all the clues seem to point to. And if cat is plugged, need to look into why it happened. if smelling gas at tailpipe, you still have an issue. Cat maybe end result not the original problem.

                                    You say you have a basic scan tool and LTFT is -10%. What is short term reporting after it is warmed up and in closed loop? And can you see the 02’s switching on your scan tool? If so, you can repeat looking for vacuum leaks by spraying around and watching for a reaction on the front o2’s and STFT. If O2’s report rich ( plateaus on/near 1v) while spraying then you have a vacuum leak. STFT should also go negative to compensate.

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