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It hasn’t taken long and there’s already some controversy about my Fairmont build. Now that everyone knows I’m going with a turbo, the consensus seems to be that I need to run fuel injection with it. I don’t agree so I made this video to make my case about my choice of going with a blow through carburetor.
What are your thoughts?
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Eric I agree 110% with what you’ve said here, it makes sense for your build. I personally am never going back from EFI, whether it’s at the throttle body, multi port, or direct injection. But then again most of my experiences with carbs has been on cheap frustrating lawn mowers and mopeds and old cars and motorcycles that everything may not be 100% up to par on.
And besides, it’s a Ford, the less technology the less to break 😉
Have a link to the other discussion, I must have missed it?
If you plan to change the jets often, get the quick change fuel bowls. They allow changing the jets without removing the fuel bowls. They come with a special screwdriver that holds the jet when installing/removing.
What is the rest of the fuel system? You will need a higher pressure pump and boost referenced fuel regulator.
As for the carb vs EFI, I have both on my cars. My issue is not which one, but the quality of “pump gas”.
#1 – It seems the pump gas here wants to vaporize and boil at fairly moderate temperatures when used in the low fuel pressures of a carb, although the worst part is when using a mechanical fuel pump, the low pressure of the suction side increases the likely hood of vapor lock. Since you are boosting the engine, I’m sure you will be using a higher pressure electric fuel pump, and when under boost, the fuel to the carb and in the bowls will be under higher pressure, but under no-boost conditions the fuel might boil in the bowls if the carb gets too hot.
The EFI keeps the fuel delivery under high pressure to the injector.
#2 – The carb has “hidden costs” when it comes to tuning. Depending on what changes the carb may need, parts like Jets, air bleeds, metering plate restrictions, power valves, accelerator pump cams, and vacuum secondary springs can really add up.
With the EFI you just tweek the software.
#3 – Sort of going along with “hidden costs”, With your carb setup, you need a boost referenced regulator, and ignition retard control box. If you are using electric cooling fans, you would need a separate fan controller.
You can get all this in the EFI, and may reduce the wiring and number of sensors used compared to running multiple boxes/systems.
#4 – Cost. The cost and quality of aftermarket EFI is finally starting to come down. The new player in TBI injections seems to be FiTech.
I haven’t used the FiTech, but they look nice for the cost.
http://fitechefi.com/default.asp.pg-GoEFISystem8-InjectorKitI watched the video on ETCG1 carburetors vs fuel injection. It was a good video. One comment made was about how some people look at carburetors as “yesterday” technology. That got me to thinking about something. Is the challenge in the automotive repair and modifying gone? Eric talks about enjoying the challenge of working with the carb on his Fairmont modification project. I’ve watched every episode of Wheeler Dealers, at least once, and Ed China has mentioned about the cars Mike Brewer brought in and loving a good challenge. Numerous times on the show China would show something he had to make to get something to work. Like the episodes with the VW splitty-van and the Polish car, in fact both dealt with the steering column. Today cars are so over-computerized that the human equation of working on them seems to have disappeared. It’s basically unplug the old part and plug in the new part or it is more cost effective to replace the whole engine than to rebuild it. I’m finding that to be the case with my wife’s 1999 Suburban. That’s another long story. Anyway, is this making any sense? Society has gotten to the point that everything has got to be “right now” and the automotive world seems the same way. I’m in a whole other profession, but I like working on cars though. The tools in my hands, taking something apart and putting it back together. Have I gotten frustrated? Oh yeah and not just a little bit! My wife has heard me cussing and she would ask me, “If you get frustrated at it why do you do it?” I’d grumpily reply, “Because I love it!” After I’m finished with the repair that was getting the best of me and all is working well again I can’t wait to do it again.
When you step into this battle..
Best to defer to the people who know.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHg2uqJvLOk&list=PLGvTvFzdMg_O2T3UdUEt5dIHutSOu7srE&index=2
[quote=”Hollumsd” post=167407]I watched the video on ETCG1 carburetors vs fuel injection. It was a good video. One comment made was about how some people look at carburetors as “yesterday” technology. That got me to thinking about something. Is the challenge in the automotive repair and modifying gone? Eric talks about enjoying the challenge of working with the carb on his Fairmont modification project. I’ve watched every episode of Wheeler Dealers, at least once, and Ed China has mentioned about the cars Mike Brewer brought in and loving a good challenge. Numerous times on the show China would show something he had to make to get something to work. Like the episodes with the VW splitty-van and the Polish car, in fact both dealt with the steering column. Today cars are so over-computerized that the human equation of working on them seems to have disappeared. It’s basically unplug the old part and plug in the new part or it is more cost effective to replace the whole engine than to rebuild it. I’m finding that to be the case with my wife’s 1999 Suburban. That’s another long story. Anyway, is this making any sense? Society has gotten to the point that everything has got to be “right now” and the automotive world seems the same way. I’m in a whole other profession, but I like working on cars though. The tools in my hands, taking something apart and putting it back together. Have I gotten frustrated? Oh yeah and not just a little bit! My wife has heard me cussing and she would ask me, “If you get frustrated at it why do you do it?” I’d grumpily reply, “Because I love it!” After I’m finished with the repair that was getting the best of me and all is working well again I can’t wait to do it again.[/quote]
No, the challenge is just different. These days, you’d be better learning off how about programmable ECUs and valve and ignition timing than carburetor tuning. These systems can still be worked on, tuned, modified – it’s simply a more specialized process. If anything, though, that’s more challenging.
I’m old school too so i know where Eric is coming from..
carburetor is so simple to use and tune and affordable.
efi you need to be nerd to be able to tune it,them ecu,injectors way too
costly and reality is it will only save you fuel not performance!
that’s my opinion .I agree with you…. I like Carburetors too!
I had a 1982 Chevrolet Citation with a 2.8 liter V6 and it got over 30 MPG!
I never had a car with fuel injection reach that level. 2009 Honda Element only gets on a good day 24.
[quote=”CordiaMad” post=167463]I’m old school too so i know where Eric is coming from..
carburetor is so simple to use and tune and affordable.
efi you need to be nerd to be able to tune it,them ecu,injectors way too
costly and reality is it will only save you fuel not performance!
that’s my opinion .[/quote]I’m old school too, but most carbs don’t work well out of the box at 6,000+ ft altitude.
I have invested quite a bit of money (maybe around $1,000) in “tuning” parts for both Holley and Carter/Edelbrock carbs.
Really it is less expensive to have the engine professionally chassis dyno tuned.
Engine dyno tuning is also good, but the tune can change quite a bit unless using the same exhaust, air filter, ignition and accessories that will be on the car.
I also did a port EFI swap using an older “Edelbrock XT” kit which does not have all the features of the newer ECUs.
I am swapping the XT ECU out for a FAST 2.0 ECU, so yes my first foray into EFI was expensive, but I hope to learn from my mistakes.This isn’t about the title of the vid, but rather a comment you made about taking the channel in the direction of tuning/building. I also know you like different oddball type stuff, so it got me curious if you ever thought about doing anything to the element? It would be something cool and different, and with your honda experience shouldnt be too complicated for you. I’ve read you can swap in the k24 and 6 speed from a tsx, then have lots of aftermarket options, including a supercharger to make over 300hp.
Not practical really, but would be awesome to see.
[quote=”ctmnismo” post=167558]This isn’t about the title of the vid, but rather a comment you made about taking the channel in the direction of tuning/building. I also know you like different oddball type stuff, so it got me curious if you ever thought about doing anything to the element? It would be something cool and different, and with your honda experience shouldnt be too complicated for you. I’ve read you can swap in the k24 and 6 speed from a tsx, then have lots of aftermarket options, including a supercharger to make over 300hp.
Not practical really, but would be awesome to see.[/quote]
I have. I thought about putting a diesel in it. CRV’s in Europe have a diesel option. I thought about getting one and putting it in.
I wouldn’t do performance upgrades to the Element. It’s the wrong type of vehicle for that sort of thing. Not to mention mine is a rust bucket.
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