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1998 Dodge Neon WITHOUT ABS. Front Disc, rear drums. Kind of a long story, but I’m trying to be complete here, so bear with me. Where brakes are concerned, this isn’t my first rodeo, but this one is a head scratcher for me.
One day, the brake pedal went right to the floor. The car ultimately stopped, but it was pretty freaky. Turns out there was a brake line rusted on the left rear line. I got a buddy to show me how to splice new line onto the brake lines using a tubing cutter and compression fitting. For this particular side, sadly, we had to drop the gas tank to get to it. We repaired it and all seemed well.
About a week later, the Right Front tire was smoking. Turns out, the smoke was coming from heat generated at the right front caliper, melting the plastic wheel covers. I decided to replace BOTH front calipers. Now, I only replaced the calipers, and did not replace the pads, since there was plenty of friction material left on the pads, although, admitedly, you could see some heat degredation on them. As suspected, the right front caliper was siezing – it was the slide pins. The left front caliper had a worn boot, and you could occassionally smell heat from that side, so, of course, that caliper was replaced too, again, using the old pads.
While bleeding the right front with a two-man system, we were getting great resistance on the brake pedal, and just at the last opening/closing of the bleeder valve, you could hear a hiss, and the buddy reports the pedal going to the floor again. I thought there might be something wrong with the compression fitting that we had done a week earlier. Nope. Now it was the right rear line, just about the same location as the left rear line (gotta love design). The line had rusted through.
This time however, we didn’t need to drop the gas tank, and found a spot about midway under the vehicle that was “splicable”. The problem was, that it was too tight of a space to use a tubing cutter (yes, the tiny ones) without risking putting more stress on the old lines. So my buddy used a hack saw blade to cut through the line. That took like… forever. We made sure the master cylinder never ran dry during the process. So, we bent and spliced new line onto the old line and connected it to the right rear. Upon bleeding the system, we found that no fluid was coming through the bleeder bolt. (slaps forehead) what the hell?
Turns out the brake hose on the right rear drum brake was plugged. I bought a new brake hose, and connected it, and again bled the system. I suspect that some rust had gotten in the system and plugged that brake hose. All was well, except…
Pressing on the brake pedal is rather mushy. The pedal will not go all the way to the floor, but it seems to travel quite far. The car will not stop on a dime, like it should. You have to increase your stopping distance. You can’t “skreetch” the brakes.
Not having a buddy any longer, I put cardboard under all the spots where work was done on the line, and pressed the brake pedal, forcing fluid through the system. There were no visible leaks.
Is it possible I have another plug in another brake hose? Is it because I used “less than ideal” pads? Do I have compression fitting issues (although they do not appear to be leaking). I’m not losing brake fluid, at least that I can tell.
Any advice? I mean, you know, it’s brakes…
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I’m surprised you have a brake hose in the rear and not a hard line
to the wheel cylinder. Did the master ever run dry? also check that
your rear drum brakes are adjusted correctly. more info in these articles.First: those compression fittings are not sanctioned by the ASE. They can blow out at anytime, even if they are installed according to the instructions. Second You aren’t supposed to use a hack saw to cut lines like that. The reason for this is because it increases the chances of particals gettine into the system.
First try pulling off the drums. Check for leaks around the wheel cylinders. Clean out any dust. Check shoes for excessive wear. after you put the drums back on adjust the shoes on both drums.
Replace the front pads. If they are glazed they are not going to work correctly. If you’re using pads that are not providing the correct amount of friction, then you are increasing the load on the hydraulic system. And those compression fittings are the weakest part of your hydraulic system right now. After all that, just gravity bleed the whole system. Fill the master cylinder, open up all the bleeders, and just let them bleed out. Don’t let the master cylinder run dry though.I’m going to second the idea that those compression fittings are crap. They are fine for transmission cooler lines, or fuel lines on old carbuerated cars where there is only 15 psi of fuel pressure, but they are not a good idea at all for brake lines.
It is ALWAYS best to replace an entire brake line at one time, from end to end, using only flare nut fittings with double flared ends. Anything less is a hack job, and is not safe.
Now then, since everything was working before, I’m going to guess that your rear brakes are reasonably well adjusted, and the issue is air in the line, and possibly the front pads being glazed from the heat, and maybe even a bit of the rotors being fudged from being so hot.
Since you’ve been having all of these rust related brake problems, why not just replace all of the hard lines? It’s a fair amount of work, but worth if for the reliability. I’m fairly sure they sell pre-bent hardline for your car, so you can just fish it in and bolt it up (instead of bending/flaring each line).
Also consider upgrading to stainless steel braided brake lines for the front, as they offer less problems long term and are more reliable (to replace the rubber flex hoses).
Okay, let’s start here: apparently it was a dumb, dumb, DUMB, idea to use compression fittings on a brake line. I know that some states don’t allow them – yet, I went on the advice of two folks who had done it before and went “Yeah, it’s easy!“. I watched a few YouTube videos showing how they did the job. I naturally assumed that this was a common repair – and apparently it is, albeit ill advised.
We all know that the compression fittings will be the weakest link in the chain, and I now have a compression fitting on both rear lines. In retrospect, not smart – (shaking head in disgust) I think I over partied as a youngster. Sadly, my father has passed, so I cannot tell him that he was right when he used to say “If you don’t have time to do it right the first time, when are you going to have time to do it over?”
Looks like I’m in for a complete brake line replacement – I’ve tried to find pre-bent lines since I don’t have the flaring/bending tools to do it, to no avail. Since I have more time than money, I am going to have to buy lines and try doing this myself. I’ll see if my parts place rents professional flaring kits.
Side Point – I’m going to be replacing the two rear brake lines in their entirety. I’ve seen Eric’s review of flaring brake lines, etc., and of course, will be studying them in more detail. However, everyone always says “don’t let the master cylinder run dry”. Since I’m going from MC to wheel cylinder with the replacement lines, how do you keep it from running dry? And seriously… does it matter? When you’re replacing lines, the whole thing has to be bled anyway, and really, bleeding isn’t that big of a deal, is it? I mean, more work, yeah, but, fresh fluid, new lines, etc…
Another side point. The parts store sells 6 ft bits of line (3/16). So I assume you do all your flaring first, and then join them after bending/mounting. Is that right?
Oh, and of course I’m going to put new pads on. The poster who said never use a hack saw was completely right. I cut open the clogged brake hose that goes to the wheel cylinder – guess what as clogging it? Yep. Remember that line in Tommy Boy? “I’m an idiot”.
Thank you guys for your advice. I’m ashamed, because I’m really smarter than that.
I just checked rockauto and indeed they do not sell pre-bent lines for your car. I suggest removing the entire brake line that your replacing, then use it as a template for bending up the new one. Try to rent the eastwood flaring tool if you can. As far as flaring before bending, you might want to flare one side, then bend, then flare the other end once you have it formed. To avoid running the master dry, buy a pedal holder/use something to hold the brake pedal down part way. This will prevent fluid from exiting the master (and create less of a mess while you’re pulling everything apart).
Good luck!
Hey buddy I have done several dumb things in almost 40 years of tooling.A lot of times I use cost and time as an excuse.Like you said your Dad said (mine too)If it’s worth doing at all it is worth it to do it correctly. :ohmy:
I’m going to admit to having used compression fittings in the same way in the past. Honestly, I didn’t have any issues with them. However as many have pointed out, it’s not a good idea.
That said, I don’t think that’s your problem. I don’t think compression fittings would cause a spongy pedal. That sounds more like air in the system or things aren’t moving correctly. Make sure the caliper is serviced properly.
Also, the rear brake adjustment. I would first make sure that adjustment is correct and that you have no air in the system. Then I would try this.
If that doesn’t work then I’d look to the master cylinder. More info here. The same article College man posted.
http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/solving-brake-problems
Good luck and keep us posted.
Don’t be too ashamed, this is how we learn. First time I did an oil change, I dumped 4 quarts of motor oil straight out the drain hole, and into a storm drain. What a disaster.
Mistakes are an opportunity to learn, which you will.
Eric, I agree that while the compression fitting aren’t the safest route, it doesn’t seem like the would cause the mushy brake pedal. I cannot, however, perform the technique in your video where you skreetched your brakes in that Honda (Dealing with a Spongy Brake Pedal). There is no way that these brakes will do that. They did… before the problems, but now, I cannot slam on the brakes and have the wheels lock up so to speak. So, well, there’s that.
I will be doing the brake line replacement on Saturday, and while there are new calipers up front, I will disassemble them again and inspect to make sure everything is as it should be. I will also check the rear brake travel distance and make sure they are adjusted properly.
As far as no air in the system, I will be doing this with the genius who used the hack saw, so it will be a two-man brake bleed. That’s the only thing I know of to get air out of the system.
In your video on replacing the master cylinder (which I’ve done before), you didn’t indicate how you knew it was the MC; so, from a diagnostics standpoint, I’m a little handicapped.
So I’ll do this in three days and get back.
By the way, thanks to those who gave me a pat on the back for being a nimrod. I appreciate the support.
You might want to re-watch the master cylinder video as it states in the beginning that the pedal would sink to the floor at stop lights.
As for the spongy pedal video, I realize that you can’t lock up the brakes. What I was advocating is that you ‘try’ to lock the brakes up to see if the problem changed.
Good luck with your repairs and keep us posted on your progress.
This is a follow up of the brake line replacement and brake service on the 1998 Dodge Neon. Let’s start here: WHAT A NIGHTMARE! The task at hand was to replace two rear drum brake lines, and then evaluate the brake system for the mushy pedal and not being able to lock up the brakes in a panic stop.
I went to Harbor Freight and bought a double flaring kit and brake line pliers – this was the first mistake. As Eric rather nonchalantly said, you have to practice making flares. Out of the box, the double flaring kit broke. The jig to hold the brake line in place is cheap metal and cannot withstand the torque required to secure the brake line. The die that produces the flare broke off inside the tubing. So that was an immediate fail.
I went to the parts store and bought another kit that looked sturdier, and since there was yet another parts store across the street, I was able to rent a flare kit; net result is that I didn’t open the one that I had purchased and ended up returning it. The kit I rented had some positive attributes that I didn’t realize would be important until I started with my practice flares.
The jig that holds the line in place uses two 1/2-inch nuts, requiring the use of a ratchet (or adjustable wrench, but a ratchet is better) to secure the brake line. That, as it turns out was a very good feature as opposed to wing nuts. All of these types of jigs that hold the brake line have two major caveats: first of all, they create quite a bite into the brake line to secure it in place. That means additional filing/sanding when you’re done to ensure that the brake line nut will move freely on the tubing. The second caveat is that since the jig is a “clamshell” style, the weakest point when securing the brake line is the pins that hold the clamshell together. If you over tighten, you bend and possibly break the pins that hold the clamshell together. I saw a rental kit at the first store that was actually broken – one of those pins had broken and was in the plastic carrying kit. The jig I used was much better in terms of being able to withstand the torque, but the clamshell pins still bent out of place and were distorted throughout the entire process.
I must have flared 50 ends – learning each time how to better de-burr and chamfer in order to prep the surface for the flaring. It took a long time to find the right torque to hold the line so that it wouldn’t move and still not break the pins in the jig (more than they were).
On this particular kit, the clamp that compresses the die onto the brake line also had a 1/2 inch nut – this is FAR superior to the ones that use a bar like a C-clamp as it allows you to more easily and steadily compress the line and not have the jig move in the vice; it’s a more even, steady torque onto the die. Still, you have to have some skill in assuring that the die stays centered and compresses the line evenly.
Still, none of my flares looked quite like “factory” flares, and left me concerned. But with the tubing nut in place, emery paper, a fine file, and a magnifying glass, I was able to repeatedly make what I thought were pretty smooth, non galled, non-cracked flares. This took approximately half of a day.
I had watched Eric’s video on brake line replacement for his Ford, and honestly, I don’t know how he did it alone. I had a buddy helping me who is a master carpenter. That was a stroke of luck as we tackled the task of bending brake lines.
Those pliers? Forget ’em. They put bite marks in the line and if you have PVF coated lines like I used (AGS Poly Armour) it just destroys the coating and obviates the anti-corrosion benefits of the PVF coating. My buddy had borrowed a 180-degree tubing bender (you can search for “ATD-54723” if you want to see what it looks like). This was an awesome tool. Watching Eric’s video, we used vice grips with hose on the end to secure the old and new line together, and began bending. I could never have done this alone, and thanks to my buddy’s carpentry skills, we were able to bend the new line to a “pert near perfect” replica of the original line.
The biggest problem? You don’t know if your flares are going to seal properly until after all of that is done, and you install it in the vehicle. And guess what? My flares leaked. So if you’re using a jig type flaring kit, you cannot really create flares once the line is in the vehicle since it requires a vice.
I used my old tubing nuts so that I could be certain that I would have the right thread count. First of all, I want to shoot the guy who decided to use two separate sized tubing nuts. One rear brake line was 7/16 nut, the other rear brake line was a 3/8. (slaps forehead). Can they make this any more difficult?
We were able to find a sweet spot after many hours of screwing around with the line/fitting so that under high pressure, there were no leaks at the master cylinder or at the brake line/brake hose juncture. That was no easy feat and fear was high because I did NOT want to take the line out and re-flare and then re-bend a new line.
When we got it all together, we stared bleeding. Guess what? There was a plug in the brake hose. No brake fluid was coming out. This is the same thing that happened when we put a compression fitting on a spliced brake line on the other rear wheel a week before (different rear wheel). In that scenario, to test, we had removed the brake hose from the wheel cylinder and put compressed air (120 psi) into the brake hose, and then into the wheel cylinder. We were able to actuate the wheel cylinder but not able to blow air through the brake hose. So I had replaced that hose earlier in the week. But now, the other side had a plug in the brake hose. (slaps forehead again). Only this time, the wheel cylinder did not actuate with compressed air. Removing the drum, we pressed on the brake pedal and saw that the wheel cylinder was not being actuated. So… back to the parts store for a new hose and a new wheel cylinder.
Once all of that was accomplished, we were able to successfully bleed the brakes at all four wheels. Still, I cannot lock up the brakes on a panic stop unless I do a double pump. If I double pump the brake pedal, I can lock them up and cause a screech. I’m wondering if it’s the vacuum line to the power booster, but I’m confident that the vehicle stops within the normal safety margin one would expect.
Final thoughts about all of this. First of all, if you can avoid flaring, do so – it takes skill and experience and most importantly an excellent flaring kit. The Eastman kit that Eric reviewed would be okay IF you can be sure they were right out of the box. Eastman makes another kit that’s over $500 that would allow you to make a flare with the line in the vehicle. I salivated a little bit when I saw it. Another strategy that we had considered, was buying pre-flared lines and joining them with a coupling. That would have been far safer than a compression fitting. I wish we had done that since the weakest point, really, is the flares. If you’re not good at it, you’re in for a lot of work. So if I had to do it again (and I hope to all things holy that I do not) I would buy pre-flared pieces and bend/join.
Secondly, I suspect that because the two rear brake lines had rusted through (on separate days), that rust actually got into the braking system and clogged up those two rear brake hoses. Another possibility is that since I’m pretty sure the brake fluid had never been flushed from the master cylinder, that all the brake fluid we had been putting through there over the course of the previous two weeks (testing, bleeding, etc.) had dislodged debris from inside the master cylinder and either causing or contributing to the clogged rear brake hoses. Another reason to regularly flush your master cylinder.
On compression fittings and brake lines… I’ve done a fair bit of research and discovered this: brake lines are rated at approximately 18,000 psi. Cars produce somewhere between 500 and 2000 psi as measured at the wheel. Brass compression fittings are rated at 200-500 psi. So while many DIY’ers may use compression fittings on brake lines, a panic stop may become deadly unnecessarily. They DO make compression fittings that are made of stainless steel, and have demonstrated that the compression fittings hold even up to 20,000 psi – in the demonstration I saw, the brake line burst before the compression fitting.
I would like to thank the folks in this forum for their help and understanding, and I would especially like to thank Eric The Car Guy for being an awesome educator on DIY projects.
Now let’s just hope that my flares hold up over time….
I have been a tech for over 45 years and have used several flaring tools over the years and I still sometimes have problems making a good flare.
It’s too bad your experience wasn’t a good one but for me brake and fuel lines rarely are a good experience for me either. I only do brake lines when I absolutely have to but when I do have the pleasure 🙁 . I change the line completely from one end to the other. for me there is NO other way.
The important thing is that you did the job correctly in the end and the hydraulic part of your brakes is safe now.
(…arranges shield over head for flak that is about come raining down…)
In the UK we get a lot of MoT test (inspection) failures for rusty brake lines. The inspectors recommend replacement with copper brake line. Auto parts stores sell rolls of the stuff (£10 for enough to do the whole car) specifically for this purpose. It’s easier to flare, doesn’t rust and can be ‘fed’ into position like electrical wiring. I replaced all the solid brake lines in our Freelander with copper in 4.5 hours, most of which was spent undoing the old unions. It’s wonderful stuff. Is there some reason you don’t use it in the US?
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