A/C issues, 2004 Chrysler Pacifica 3.5L AWD

[Monty Howard]

Why does this have to happen to me???? 🙁 (ALSO SENT BY E-MAIL TO ERIC)

Due to an accident, we are facing insurance issues with our 2004 Chrysler Pacifica 3.5L AWD. Our truck is no longer blowing cold air on hot days. The air will get very cold on cool nights when ambient temperature is around 76~78 outside, as soon as it goes above 78 or so, the cooling greatly diminishes, all blowers are functioning well.

We recently replaced the blower motor and resistor, the collision center thought this would resolve the problems. We began having A/C issues after a minor accident where a person backed into our car when rapidly exiting a parking space backward, our vehicle had stopped but the impact moved the front of the our vehicle about a foot or 2 to the side.

Insurance appraisers are arguing the A/C was not damaged by the accident but they have made blower repairs. Our position is everything was working as if new with our A/C prior to the accident and immediately afterward we began hearing noise in the blower area and our cooling has since gotten worse and worse. Insurance has replaced a bad blower motor and resistor. It appears they did not check pressures after the blower repairs to verify proper system function.

Now insurance needs us to get the A/C inspected and we have to pay for the inspection until insurance is convinced to add this to the supplemental damage repairs. To avoid higher cost, I would like to purchase a set of manifold gauges and hook them up so I can add refrigerant to the system, with good quality UV dye. This will save the cost of recovery and dye added at the new car dealer to perform diagnostics.

I noticed when I removed the low side A/C valve cap that the liquid appears yellowish green and looks like dye is already added. This was likely done at the collision center but they deny checking for refrigerant leaks. Although they deny checking, the man I spoke to was not the man doing the work and I strongly suspect the A/C technician did check pressure levels, they charged insurance for 1 hour of diagnostic work on the A/C system prior to repairs. That much time for blower only diagnostics seem excessive

When I hook up the new manifold gauges I am buying, what pressure reading should I be in the range of on both the high and low side so I do not over charge the system? Which gauge scales do you recommend monitoring, I know there are several on each of the gauges and I will be using an R134A manifold gauge set from Harbor Freight. I have no idea how much refrigerant is presently in the vehicle but I suspect at least half its normal charge, also newer vehicles usually use less refrigerant than older models. I have the factory service manuals from Chrysler but cannot locate anything on the air conditioning system other than minor drawings related to other things, potentially they have a separate manual covering heating and cooling systems. Our outside ambient temps in Tampa are running from the low 70’s to mid 90’s and our humidity may be all over the scale depending on weather and time of day, I need to have some feeling for how this will affect gauge pressures.

As a curiosity question, if the insurance will not repair the leak, can an A/C system have a vacuum pulled without draining any residual oil from the system? I may need to replace valve stems on both high and low sides where I suspect the leak may be, provided I can verify this

Otherwise, the leak is suspect in the A/C radiator area directly in front of the vehicle radiator, an area directly in the path of collision impact (Left mid-bumper). I suspect the A/C radiator was rammed during the collision by the plastic bumper or other object causing a puncture and or moving the A/C radiator creating a leak. No visual damage can be seen while the vehicle is on the ground, when raised on a hoist maybe that will reveal something the Cadillac Dealers collision center missed. I think they were only looking at body damage and paying less attention to A/C issues. Does this seem likely to you?

Do you think I am on track with my problem? Are there other things (including not A/C related) I should be looking at that may be damage from a frontal impact strong enough to move a stationary vehicle? I have no intention ofv getting anything we are not due, on the other hand we refuse to be stuck with repairs that insurance is responsible to fix.

Topic

[college man]

it does sound like you are slightly low on charge. Instead
of buying a manifold set that will probably get used once.
There is a product out called ac pro. Its for the Diy. I have
never tried it but have seen it demonstrated. If you do choose
to use it.Please let us know how it worked. 🙂 any auto part store
or even walmart should carry it.

[Monty Howard]

college man, thank you for your validation. I agree about buying the manifold gauge set, if I go to Auto Zone I can borrow one for 30 days free of charge. They even have vacuum pumps avilable too if I need one. It’s hard to beat FREE brother! [b]I usually stay away from additives I know little about but if you guys have that much faith in FREEZE (assumed additive in A/C pro) maybe I will try the blend out! 😉
[/b]
While I was reading your reply I remembered one car I had that had one of two radiator fans go south from a bad FCM, that also produced the same probems I am seeing. Hot A/C during hi ambient temps and cold A/C when ambient temps are low. [b]Guess I better check the fan control module (FCM) or at minimum check to see all fans are working before I even look at the R134a charge.

BTW I have located all the charts I need with temp and PSIa for the gauge readings. Maybe I will get out of this with only replacing a schrader valve on the High port, sounds like a likely suspect to me.[/b]

[John B Kobberstad]

If you check the pressures with a gauge and there is no pressure in the system, I would recommend that now is the time to replace to replace all the seals and O-rings and then pull the vacuum to see if there are any leaks. The only things that should go into the system are the proper amount of oil, proper amount of the correct type of refrigerant and maybe an ounce of UV dye. Putting anything else in is at your own risk and may prove to be expensive in the long run.

[Monty Howard]

[quote=”johnbkobb” post=56356]If you check the pressures with a gauge and there is no pressure in the system, I would recommend that now is the time to replace to replace all the seals and O-rings and then pull the vacuum to see if there are any leaks. The only things that should go into the system are the proper amount of oil, proper amount of the correct type of refrigerant and maybe an ounce of UV dye. Putting anything else in is at your own risk and may prove to be expensive in the long run.[/quote]

Since nothing is being replaced component wise, other than “O” rings, and seals, knowing how much oil to add if any will be hard to determine. Remember there is already oil in the system, as far as I know only the refigerant has leaked out. Any comments on what should be done re: the oil?

I have read a little about FREEZE and what I have read looks safe, since it is very similar to R134a chemically (probably why it blends so well). I am also aware that Chrysler specifically warned about additives to A/C system, Chrysler would void the A/C warranty if found.

What I have decided to do is use only R134a and good quality referigerant dye, just enough to cool a little on a warm day. As long as the pressure is up enough for the fye to be displaced at the leaks this is all I need.

I want the insurance company to repair the damage from the accident. I will have to stay away from anything other than R134a and dye to avoid claims of self imposed damage. In the event I end up in small claims court, been there done that before, I will certainly change everything as you suggested since I will be on my own at that point. It makes a great deal of sense and will be suggested to insurance although it is doubtful they agree.

I certainly will come back and let everyone know how this is progressing.

Since the thread began my new blower fan has started making a vibration type noise. I have a feeling no one cleaned the blower area before they put then new blower in. (This is under warranty from the Cadillac dealerships body shop (my Chrysler dealer did not have a collision center). At worst I may have to remove the blower and clean things out since I can not prove something did not fall into the blower after the fact. If they do the other A/C work for insurance they may do this.

[college man]

Thanks for the update and keep us posted. 🙂

[Monty Howard]

Here is the latest news about the A/C in the Pacifica.

Expecting to find low R134a, when the manifold gauges went on, I was shocked to see head pressure going off the gauge scale on the high side and well above where it should be on the low side. That made since however because the high pressures were not allowing the compressor to cycle properly in the hot weather. When it was much cooler outside the A/C compressor did cycle more normally due to the head pressure drops.

To avoid any release of R134a to the climate I took the car to a Firestone store that can be trusted and had them cycle the R134a out, pull the vacuum, let the truck sit for a couple of hours, and re-charge the system with R134A to proper pressure ranges.

Now the A/C is putting cold air out, still a bit warmer than I remember, and it hit 101 today per my outside temperature sensor. Like just about any car on a very hot day you have to drive for a few minutes to see the cold air temps drop down to the mid 40 degree range. As long as the blower is not turned all the way up to highest settings we see 45 degree temp in the center dash vents in 100 degree ambient heat. The blowers were operating at about 1/3 speed, going above this speed the center air duct temps will rise from 45 up to around 60 degrees, due to a higher volume of humid 95 to 100 degree outside air being moved through the A/C ducts.

Now the mystery, why was my A/C system developing such high head pressures. The answer is there was too much R134a in the system as best I can tell. How did it get that way is a question which will be much harder to answer. I can assume that when the system needed to be checked, during vehicle body repairs, someone must have dumped some dye into the system flushing it through the low port line with R134a. I suspect my vehicle does not hold a lot of R134a, and the small amount used to move the dye into the system, coupled with ambient temps in the mid 90 to 100 degree range and high florida humidity, caused extremely high port readings on both low and high ports.

Does anyone have differnt thoughts on why I had such high head pressures today and why I would see pretty constant temp of 60 degrees when the A/C blower motor was on? The other thing that disturbs me is why I see 60 degree temps (should be ~45)at the center duct when temp is 95 outside? Could the comopressor have been damaged from refigerant overcharge (would think yes)?

[John B Kobberstad]

Yes, overcharging the system will stress the compressor and cause it to overheat which will cause damage to it and possibly cause a catastrophic compressor failure. You did the right thing by taking it in and having it evacuated and recharged properly. Had you continued to try and use it you may have been replacing the compressor and other components of the system also.
Thanks for the update.

John

[college man]

someone had to add refrigerant to cause an over charge.
Glad you got it sorted out.

[Monty Howard]

[quote=”johnbkobb” post=56666]Yes, overcharging the system will stress the compressor and cause it to overheat which will cause damage to it and possibly cause a catastrophic compressor failure. You did the right thing by taking it in and having it evacuated and recharged properly. Had you continued to try and use it you may have been replacing the compressor and other components of the system also.
Thanks for the update.

John[/quote]

John, this confirms my own suspicions and may explain why the center duct temp is at 60 when it is 95 degrees outside, blowers are on high, A/C temp controls are set to max cooling, and the system is on recirculate. A 60 degree duct temp when 95 outside is not normal for my A/C. The truck would take a little longer to cool when very hot outside but the air coming from the vents was in the mid 40 degree range. I suspect the compressor has been damaged to the point where it works but not as well as it should. Weakened compression is expected and this will lead to failure even though the head pressures have been resolved.

Now I am thinking I should just put a new compressor on and be done with this. What I am curious about is the need to replace all the other components, dryer, condensor, and expansion valve at the same time. It will only drive the cost well over double that of only replacing the compressor. none of the A/C components has been subject to an open A/C loop and the compressor has no hint of grinding or abnormal noise when operating.

What do you think John? Does this sound like an acceptable risk to take, the cost of a rebuilt compressor with installation bet against the cost of all the other components with installation? All I need is another 3 years out of the A/C and I will sell the truck by then.

[quote=”college man” post=56679]someone had to add refrigerant to cause an over charge.
Glad you got it sorted out.[/quote]

I agree with you, unfortunately proving who added the extra charge will be a challenge. The only evidence I have is the car worked properly before the accident, the damage was fixed by Cadillac’s collision center, we noticed the A/C problems and took the truck to another reputable mechanic who found the high A/C charge (which I witnessed on gauges), vacuum was pulled and the system re-charge to proper amounts but not working as it had previously.

In addition the A/C blower has started making a fairly loud low pitched whiring noise when operating. I changed the cabin air filter, which was due for change, and the noise remains although I did not expect this to cure the noise but it was worth a try.

I will visit Cadillac about the blower noise and also discuss the A/C overcharge with them. I do not think Cadillac will do anything, although there is a life time warranty on their repair work, I remember how they denied touching the refigerant charge when I talked with the shop manager last time. I always try to be fair with technicians, for all I know they may have tried to clean the blower area prior to installing the new blower motor. Right now I do not know if the problem is debris in the blower or something else. This leaves me in a catch 22, so to speak, and how to procede is difficult. Looks like I may end up paying for all the repair work myself or doing it myseld with plenty of photos during the work.

If this turns out not to be a problem with collision repair I will gladly accept that. On the other hand if I find something else going on I’ll most likely end up spending a lot of time fighting over the warranty. Good thing I am retired, time is something I have plenty of.

Edit Latest Update:
I spoke with the collision shop that repaired the accident damage to our truck and discussed the present A/C situation. They continue to insist they did not do anything with referigerant and added that it makes no sense to them seeing the pressure high unless there is an obstruction in the lines, IE: the Orifice (what I call the expansion valve). My reply to that was an obstruction should not cause high pressure on both sides, low and high ports, which they agreeded. They seem to not understand well the A/C worked on cool days and not on hot days after picking up the truck from repairs and that the weather becam very warm several days after we pick up the truck. All of this before getting the A/C checked when high pressure was found. They are willing to look at the noise issue in the blower. If anyone has any ideas about the pressure anomaly let me know, this has been a very quick refresher study of A/C systems for me, it’s been over 15 years since the last time I reviewed anything A/C related and I am no expert by any means. I am leaning toward thinking Cadillac wants to help me get to the bottom of this, the last thing I want to do is blame a shop for anything they did not do. Nothing about this problem seems to make sense to Cadillac or myself. :dry:

[John B Kobberstad]

The other components would not necessarily need replacement as long as the compressor has not had a catastrophic failure. The condenser, evaporator and lines could be flushed good with an A/C flush and reused. The Receiver Drier/Accumulator should be replaced and the expansion valve may need replacing if any debris is found in the lines when they are flushed, the expansion valve cannot be flushed, only replaced . It could also be that the evaporator in the dash may be clogged with debris and the airflow is not correctly moving through it or the airflow through the condenser is being restricted by debris. I would go with a new compressor though.

There is a wealth of A/C info on pages 5 & 6 of the Repair Central-The ‘How To’ Forum here on the ETCG site.

[Author]

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