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Hi ETCG forum.
Since Eric is an Acura/Honda guru, I hope others have gravitated here as well and can help me with this strange issue or have seen it before. Attached is my baby and my first sports car and I’m at a loss on how to help her with some strange starting issues.
So everyone, here is what I have to ask, what else could be at play when the clutch safety switch works sometimes and not others times? Meaning SOMETIMES when I turn the key, though the fuel pump will start (hum), lights all work, lots of juice in the battery, safety button / clutch is depressed, and I’ll get no engine crank over. MOST times car starts up fine. This issue acts just as if you don’t have the clutch button depressed. For the quick solutions, here is what I have tried/done so far:
-Push harder on pedal/pump it a few times
-Took car to Dealer who says safety button works fine, its the after market alarm system
-have after market alarm system replaced with new one. issue prevails
-Clean battery/reset electrical system- still not working
-replace battery with higher end one (Note: new battery is not corroding, it must have been the old one had a crack)Now for those that want he full story of this, keep reading the novel below.
Let me preface the issue in step by step order.
1) When buying the car, (spring 2013), owner tells me of this “no start” issue happening sometimes and his answer is to pound the crap out of the pedal till its starts. (he thinks its the button.)
2) It doesn’t happen for the first couple weeks of me owning the car, then the no start rears its head. 🙁 The pedal pound works for me the first couple times this happens but this “cure” does not solve it when it happens again one day. Then strangely it does start after a few minutes of just waiting, with key out of ignition. B) I book a date with my local Acura dealer to get the button replaced, (heard they would be the only ones with a replacement button) they however say the button is fine, its your after market alarm system causing this. :unsure:
3) so Before taking it to the alarm shop, I find another quick fix. I look at the battery, the negative terminal is corroded bad, I clean it, problem goes away and car starts well for another month, but then problem comes back. Pound pedal not working, battery not corroded that much, but AHA! simply taking the battery terminal off, then putting back on again works. (did this reset the alarm then?) Good for another couple months, I am pleased and start saving for a new alarm. 🙂
4) I buy a brand new alarm, have the shop tech install it, a week later the problem comes back. :angry: no start. battery is cleaned (though getting corroded again) but all previous tricks not working, while thinking I’m stranded for good and searching the internet for a tow truck, after 15 minutes of waiting it starts right up. My new work around. Sometimes waiting a few minutes MORE works. then next time it happens, it becomes and hour, then 2. I am at a loss but have another car to get around in. Dealer and Alarm people out of ideas.now what? $500 into a problem that is still not fixed. It works fine for a week or 2 then dies again. GRR! :angry:
5) Then one hot summer day, Groceries in the car, the car has been working well for awhile, I stop for 5 minutes at a friends and BAM! won’t start. Let’s me try something new then! I do some side of the road research on the internet on my phone, find out where the safety button is, and hatch the plan to see this “dealer says – working fine” safety button under the dash with my own eyes. 😛 Feet stuck out the passenger door, contorted in a yoga pose I can only say is downward facing clutch pedal, I see the button. banana: Thank goodness for my small female fingers as I press and hold the button in this position and turn the key with my other hand, poof, car starts again! rock on! its the pedal and button not lining up maybe?
6) I learn to go by feel after this no start happens again a few days later. I now can contort my arm up under the dash and press the button while seated in the drivers seat! Can you say best anti theft equipment ever? B) I think about fixing this and go hey why? This “ghost” of an issue is better than the new alarm and leave it for a month or more. But it doesn’t last for long.
7) Now the button trick (and all others) stops working one day and I get fed up. A combination of them finally gets me going after an hour, but then it does the same thing the next day. I think, well, lets swap the battery, it has been found corroded 3 times in the past few months on the negative terminal. And poof what a difference!!. The issue stops happening so frequently. Almost never. That was 2 months ago. I bought the top end 7 year battery that is supposed to better for high drawing electronics in cars. (of course I had a sub installed in the back that month) so I think I have made a great choice here. Mind you these starting issues happened before my stereo was installed, maybe the stereo made them worse. Never had the problem again for quite awhile. then… :pinch:
That said…In the past 3 weeks the start issue is starting to rear its head once again. Sometimes its taking a couple of tries but is not leaving me stranded for long. Had to wait a minute one day but then it worked fine. So this says to me it is definitely something electrical related. It is also being masked by a new battery having more juice at start up. This tells me I have merely been masking the problem this whole time and not finding the source. Lets look at the check list one more time:
-Push harder on pedal not working
-Dealer says safety button works fine
-Replace after market alarm system they suggest and no luck
-Clean battery, reset electrical system not working
-replace battery with higher end one (Note: new battery is not corroding, it must have been the old one had a crack)So that’s the story everyone. Sorry it took so long. Can anyone else tell me where to look next. My baby is going to be parked soon for the winter so time to tinker will be mine shortly.
Thanks so much for reading. So far other Honda forums have not had any other answers.
- Replies
Suggestions:
It’s almost impossible for the battery or the connections to be the problem. Next time you turn the key, watch the dome light. If it stays bright as you turn the key, the problem is not the battery or starter or battery connections.
First thing, snip out the alarm system, completely. Many of these are flaky. If it unplugs from its wiring harness, that’s almost as good a thing, although often the problem is in the shoddy installation work where the wires end up scraping metal.
Next, when you turn the key, do you hear a click? That would tell us the ignition switch is probably okay.
Next, have somebody around with a small hammer. When you turn the key, and nothing happens, have them rap on the black or gold soup-can that’s mounted on the starter while you’re holding the key to “start”. If it then starts, then the problem is a sticking starter relay/solenoid. Very commmon too.
Have you tried replacing the ignition switch? These are a common point of failure on Hondas.
With the corrosion on the battery terminals.You could have
corrosion inside the wire.http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/solving-automotive-no-start-problems
Wow quick responses guys and thanks so much! PROGRESS :woohoo:
I wish I could “make” the issue happen on command so I will have to keep this thread of ideas close by for when this could happen again.
GRG88 – So if I hear you correctly, if (when) this happens again I should:
1) disconnect the alarm all together and try starting? If the car starts, get another alarm? Any preferred brands better? or is brand not the issue? Meaning someone has goofed up the electrical on my car so bad no alarm will work right? Theft of these cars is #8 on the most stolen list in this city. I’ll need something else besides “the club” for the steering wheel and plain door locks.
2) Basically: If when the problem is happening, I try to start up, the dome light flickers (goes dimmer), the starter could be the issue and just not engaging properly? Give it a whack with the hammer to see if that helps while a friend turns the key. The starter could have intermittent failures.
OR: If the dome light stays normal, it could be the ignition switch not working right and not sending current to the starter? Meaning the switch has intermittent failure. Not the clutch safety switch at all.
(its been awhile but the dimming lights sounds familiar)
3)As for the click with the ignition. Is this something to listen for when the problem happens or whenever I start the car?
Also, any thoughts or ideas of the why the voodoo I have done worked at times? Last time this happened for me, (few days ago), pushing the Clutch safety button with my finger worked right away and it started up (but as I said in my book, it did not work at times). Also, when I have pushed the button, sometimes I have felt what feels like a little bit of current (shock) when touching it. Is that normal? Might just be my contorted hand hitting a nerve too so not sure. Wasn’t like the snap of a static shock from a door knob in the winter feeling, more like a dull numb pulse feeling. (if that makes sense)
College Man: I’ll look at the wires past the terminals and see what I can clean up. Cheers!
I’ll keep everyone posted and thanks again :cheer:
Aftermarket security systems are always suspect. Something that is very common on Hondas is a problem with the electrical portion of the ignition switch. This video may help.
This article on no starts also has some Honda specific information in it.
http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/solving-automotive-no-start-problems
Keep us posted.
Well here is an update. Of course the problem has happened again and the car would not start. Since I was in a rush and couldn’t tinker long, I did the dome light check as you stated GRG88. And low and behold, you (and the dealership) were correct. B) The dome light did not dim or flicker slightly when turning the key. Therefore I am totally thinking it is my alarm system to blame. And actually, I accidentally set the car alarm off the night before (at a shopping mall no less; I was so embarrassed). Though I got the to start again (drove it home and all) this no start issue happened after the car sat for the night. And of course, few hours later, went out and the car started fine. It was cold that night so maybe some condensation is shorting a wire somewhere? God knows!….But that all said:
1) I do not have the original factory alarm for the car to put back in. An after market alarm was installed when I bought the car.
2) Although the new aftermarket alarm I replaced it with was put in by a professional, the “no start issue” was there before replacing. Saying to me, the 1st aftermarket alarm install is what mucked things up. Therefore I doubt the alarms them selves are to blame and taking it back would be a waste of time.
3) this all said, Does anyone know any quick things (AKA wires, fuses, connections) that someone (maybe novice at installing the first alarm) could have screwed up easily that I could look at to search for clues?
4) Should I just accept the fact my security system will have ghosts no matter what and say forget it at this point? I have $700 into this problem thus far and really don’t want to spend much more if it won’t solve it.
5) Just a thought, Would there be a way to maybe disable the system when I want to use the car and I am out and driving and then enable it to park it without ripping my dash apart each time? ( I do realize this is a band-aid on a band-aid solution but might make it an easier and cheaper work around.)thanks again everyone! I Love this SITE! :cheer:
Have you tried the trick with the ignition switch yet? If not, it’s worth a shot. It’s a very common problem on Hondas. Also, since you initially stated you thought it was the clutch switch, try jumping the terminals in it to see if it starts then. You would be in effect bypassing the switch. Also, sometimes the rubber bumper under the switch can have an issue as shown in this video on a brake light switch.
I honestly can’t remember if the clutch switch is normally open or normally closed. If it’s normally open, then all you would need to do is unplug the switch to bypass it rather than jumping the terminals.
Keep us posted.
Hey there!
Thanks so much for your reply Eric! I love this site! You rock! banana:
And I have another update for you that might nail this issue down. The “no start” happened again briefly this week and this time the fix was simply moving the tilt in the steering wheel down to about the middle from the highest setting. Seems to me this may be part of the ignition switch problem you mentioned after all.
I know my 98 Honda CRV just went through this ignition nonsense about a month ago. It quit one day while just idling. Then intermittently wouldn’t start for a week. Then (of course when I was in a rush) conked out completely while driving one day and then had to be towed. The Honda Dealer replaced the “back half of the ignition” as they called it (whatever that means.) While I was stranded, and trying anything I could, you could hear the issue plain as day. When turning the key, there was no fuel pump hum at the notch before start…it starting huming on the “start” notch) Meaning the switch wasn’t priming the engine. I never wiggled the key like you did in the video (saw the video after that day) but I bet it would have done the same. Oh well, my CRV is back in business.
However, the Integra though this whole ordeal always had the “hum” of the fuel pump at the right time and just nothing after the key was turned to “start”. Maybe its not the “back half of the ignition” like in the CRV then and is the ignition switch itself? Could it be anything else. Good news is the Integra is now sleeping for the winter but its right outside my window if you have anything else I can try/test.
Again, Love your input! And many thanks again! Keep up the awesome work!
This dirty girl out! B)
The electrical portion of the ignition switch failing is a VERY common problem on Hondas. I’ve seen it more times than I can count. The symptoms are not always the same but, you do begin to see a pattern in this type of failure. Based on your description I suspect that’s the issue with your GSR. It’s actually a very simple repair. It’s defiantly worth looking into in my opinion.
Mkay, you have to stop switching batteries. It’s not the new battery that fixes it, it’s disconnecting the battery that resets things.
Next, have somebody disconnect the alarm system. Lots of those are marginal at best, and then they’re often installed by untrained monkeys.
I bet your problems will go away.
Hi everyone;
I am back. And the problem with the GSR is too. But I have progressed along far enough with this so I will hopefully get resolve soon for everyone reading this topic. As stated before (over a year ago now!), my 98 CRV had a stalling issue. That issue was that you would turn the key to start but it was effectively only going to the Run position. That was not the Key tumbler at fault, that was indeed that “back half” of the ignition switch. The common problem. My acura, I hear the click, it trys to start. It goes to the right position. It just won’t turn over.
So lets rule out all the NOTs for this issue. Sorry if the above posts got confusing .
1) Its NOT the alarm system
2) Its NOT the clutch switch (Why? – foot off clutch no click of switch, foot on clutch, switch clicks)
3) Its NOT the battery
4) Its not VooDoo because VooDooWhat it could be
1) The Electrical ignition as Eric and others have spoke of here. The only thing that makes me think otherwise is that wiggling the key trick from his video never works to stall the car. I also ALWAYS here the switch engage when trying to start and it just does not. What makes it suspect still though is I had VERY little problems with this all summer. And only in the past few weeks, when the damp weather came to the West Coast here, has the problem reared its ugly head again.
2) I wonder if its the solenoid/ starter as was also suggested by grg88. Could this also be affected by weather? Do any components of that system work different when moving the wheel around?
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In all guys, I will try the ignition back half if those problems sound like it is this. Remember in the cars case that:
A) the key clicks and engages the Ignition (meaning car trys to start it just seems no power goes to starter)
B) The CRV problem seemed so different. It made no click. It was as if someone moved the key switch out of alignment. And Yes the ignition electrical fix, fixed the CRV perfectly.
C) could an electrical problem of the ignition (Meaning part wears out) LAST this long and go weeks without ever faulting again? Would it not get progressively worse, and then happen more often? Would I not be stranded by now? My CRV started showing this problem on a Tuesday, 6 days latter I was stranded on the road and not starting only happened 2 times before that. This has been dozens and dozens and YEARS without the Acura failing permanently for good (knocks on wood)
D) Car has never stalled when driving or ever stalled in traffic. Its almost always on wet mornings after that car has sat all night. All day long I never have problems. Again – no stall..its just cold starting.
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If its the soleniod as suggested, what is that repair looking like? Is it hard? can cleaning connectors help?Lastly, The GSR is my only car for the next few months. I was 20 min late for work listening to “click click click” this morning. Its time to get this fixed for good!
thanks again all 🙂
GSR
Did some more reading folks and found this Recall TSB from Honda for the Ignition electrical switch replacement. This was the fix that cured my CRV.
Saftey Recall – Ignition Switch
I should also state I have been reading lots of articles about no start issues as well with Hondas; Other thigns they mentioned
– Could be bad tune up (wires, plugs, rotor, Dist cap)
– Could be the key and the cylinder not working – replace Key and/ or cylinder
– Could be the main Relay link here Issue I think cancels this out for me is I DO hear the click of the relay when trying to start.So More info for my car
1) Plugs (are NGKs),and dealer OEM cap and rotor are 6 months old
2) Spark plug wires are 12 months old
3) Have had new 3 Car keys made made by the dealer, and I ALWAYS use JUST the key – NO other keys and trinkets from a key chain. (have heard weight of keys can cause the electrical switch problem)***
4) Random things that have worked recently have been wiggling the steering wheel back and forth, moving the tilt to different position while turning the key. and then it starts.***
Any road, just thought I would update you all with some info and goodies I found. (PS…Added the PDF file of that TSB to here in case the URL fails in the future)
Thanks again for all your help guys 🙂
UPDATE:
Well over the past week with all the rain and cooler weather here on the “Wet” coast, I am now seeing more typical symptoms of the ignition switch with my Acura. It’s acting like the CRV.
I had one day where I spent a good 30 minutes trying to get the car to start. It made me late for work! :angry:
As I stated before, I would always hear the Main relay clicking but now it is not sometimes when turning the key to start. And I have also seen where the fuel pump is now not engaging too. This is all the same thing I saw with the CRV. Only the CRV lasted about a week of this behavior. That’s why I am acting fast on it.
I have new ignition switch wires on order and will be picking them up and tackling the job tomorrow afternoon after work. Wish me luck!!!. 110 bucks sure hurts but that’s a small price to pay for when the switch fails and I need a tow!
I must admit that I am hoping that it was these wires this whole time and my car is just special. That it took a really long time for them to fail and show the common signs others see. The car has never stalled though that’s why I am a tad skeptical. But the key crank with no clicks or fuel pump are a perfect fit for the wires. Its is certainly a step in the right direction. It could be that this is only part of the problem but I’ll have to wait and see.
I’ll let you know how I make out. I sure hope this is the fix I have been waiting for!
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SOLVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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This was the worst issue ever where too many people (not here at ETCG, I mean in my area) are totally clueless! I just fixed this issue last night and it cost me less than 25 cents. in sandpaper!
Eric, maybe you could do a good video about this with honda’s? As I actually found this elsewhere.
Basically, I took the starter out, cleaned it, took the plunger and points out of solenoid, cleaned them with sandpaper, and then put it all back together and put it in the car. The car JUMPS alive again and again. Its never started so good since I have owned it.
Note with all the others issues that are common with Hondas, The ignition back half wires, clutch safety switch, The relay up under the dash…ALL of this didn’t seem right. Because in my car,
– I heard the fuel pump,
– heard the click under the dash (the relay)
– Tried pushing the clutch safety button with my hand,
– bought a new battery – (and checked it for good voltage)
– had a brand new alarm system put inSo with all that I decided to look at the starter watching the video as hey, its a free attempt. WHAT a difference it made! Starts right up and purrs.
CAUSE? : well age is one but if I had a hunch. Its my oil seepage from the head gasket. The black crusty (like chimney soot) oil on the starter gears its self was gross! It seeped little by little, but over time, and that starter bolts to the block just inches below the gasket. Which says why I found when I parked with the passenger side lower than the drivers, the oil (that had seeped over time) would keep adding to the issue. I cleaned all the contacts (ring around the plunger, the contacts, the posts, and washers and wire connectors on the car itself) with a scrap of sand paper, and a bit of automotive electrical contact cleaner. Job took a novice girl like me about 2 to 3 hours with 45 minutes of just cleaning,
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU ALL :kiss:
Hope this helps someone else with the same issue.
Keep up the great work everyone at ETCG. Many many thanks 🙂
***UPDATE!
FINALLY got around to doing the clutch in this car which also gave me a great chance to look at all the oil leaks I’d been having. The inner Bell housing was DISGUSTING with clutch dust and oil. I spent 7 or 8 hours cleaning it out before reinstalling. (Staying dirty made easy! LOL) That oil mud was probably also a factor which exacerbated my clutch failing 🙁
Good news is the rear main seal is bone dry, all the oil was coming from above. Also Looks like other gaskets on the engine were failing (and perhaps not the head gasket at all). After looking it over, it could be the gaskets above it (Cam/valve cover gaskets , cam seals, and VTEC solenoid and maybe more?)
Been a few years since the Starter issue so I did the same “clean” repair to it as before. Should be good to go again! (NOTE: it never failed as bad as before again – but it was a tad dirty though)
Advice: If anyone else starts seeing oil seepage on your honda, don’t leave it for as long as my dumb ass did!!!
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