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Hey All,
Just did a head job on my 96 accord and now it will crank but it won’t start. I’m getting spark from my inline spark tester and I have fuel at the fuel rail (popped the service valve). I checked my timing marks and it seems like they are all on:
1. Distributor is at #1 spark plug
2. All three cam marks are aligned for TDC
3. Crankshaft is at TDC (pulled #1 spark plug and used a screwdriver to confirm marks on crank pulley)Sounds like I’m getting good compression but I don’t have a tester. It doesn’t sound like it’s turning over too easily to me.
I tried taking off the timing belt and rotating the the crack one turn in case the cam and crank were out of phase with no luck. I put it back when it did not work. Thankfully I have not heard the awful pop of me… messing up my timing.
If I spray some starter fluid in the intake, it will sound like it’s gonna turn over for a few seconds but won’t.
Any thoughts? I’ve replaced the head on 96 Buick Regal and this Honda has been more difficult :angry: by far. I guess I could have missed a ground somewhere… would I get weak spark at that point?
Also gonna buy the VManual for the Honda F series to see Eric do the timing. It started fine before. I’ll take some pictures tonight.
Thanks Guys,
Nick
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Crank the engine for 10 seconds or so, then immediately pull the plugs. If the plugs are dry, you aren’t getting fuel past the injectors.
Another possibility is that the engine was at TDC on exhaust stroke instead of compression stroke, which will cause the timing to be 180 degrees off.
Crank the engine for 10 seconds or so, then immediately pull the plugs. If the plugs are dry, you aren’t getting fuel past the injectors.
Thanks man, I’ll try that tonight.
Another possibility is that the engine was at TDC on exhaust stroke instead of compression stroke, which will cause the timing to be 180 degrees off.
I checked that rotor was pointing to number one cylinder before removing the timing belt… but I doubted myself as well.
I went to where I set TDC and removed the belt at the cam sprocket. Then I loosened the rocker assembly to ensure all the valves were closed. After that, I took out the spark plug on #1 cylinder and stuck a screwdriver in to watch the piston move. I then turned the crank until the screwdriver dropped all the way down and came up to the top again. Then I found my timing mark and put everything back together. No luck there.
[quote=”nryder11220″ post=143259]I tried taking off the timing belt and rotating the the crank one turn in case the cam and crank were out of phase with no luck. I put it back when it did not work. Thankfully I have not heard the awful pop of me… messing up my timing.[/quote]
If I’m reading this right, you rotated the crank when the valve train was disconnected and static? I was under the impression that your engine is an “interference” engine. If that’s true, you might have done some valve and/or piston damage, although it’s hard to picture how you could have rotated the crank 1 complete revolution by hand without running into mechanical resistance.
In any case, what you tried had no effect on cam/crank phasing. With the cam and valves disconnected and static, TDC is simply TDC on every revolution of the crank. It’s the action and timing of the valves which determines whether you’re on compression TDC or exhaust TDC.
I was under the impression that your engine is an “interference” engine. If that’s true, you might have done some valve and/or piston damage, although it’s hard to picture how you could have rotated the crank 1 complete revolution by hand without running into mechanical resistance.
It is an interference engine. I loosened the rocker assembly to make sure all the valves were closed before rotating the crank. I did this because I thought that the fuel injectors fire based on the CPK sensor on the crank. Are you saying they fire based on distributor position? I can’t think of any other way it could differentiate if the cylinder is on exhaust/compression.
[quote=”nryder11220″ post=143428]It is an interference engine. I loosened the rocker assembly to make sure all the valves were closed before rotating the crank. I did this because I thought that the fuel injectors fire based on the CPK sensor on the crank. Are you saying they fire based on distributor position? I can’t think of any other way it could differentiate if the cylinder is on exhaust/compression.[/quote]
The purpose of the crankshaft position sensor (CKP) is to 1) give feedback to the PCM that the engine is rotating, 2) set basic tach reference signal (RPM), and 3) detect misfires. The purpose of the top-dead-center sensor (TDC) is to determine which pair of cylinders is approaching top-dead-center. The purpose of the cylinder position sensor (CYP) is to 1) regulate and sequence the fuel injectors and 2) advance/retard ignition timing as needed. The distributor is driven by the cam, and the base ignition timing is determined by the relative position of the cylinder to the camshaft. The sensors have nothing to do with the establishment of the base ignition timing. Some PCMs are programmed to disable the fuel injectors if the feedback from the sensors indicates the ignition timing is out of range (overly advanced or retarded) to protect the engine. The engine will not run if the CKP or TDC sensors have failed. The engine will run if the CYP fails, although the PCM will go into “limp mode” using default pre-programmed timing and mixture settings and ‘guess’ the sequencing of the injectors based on the feedback from the CKP and TDC sensors.
The engine requires four things to run: fuel, spark, compression, and synchronized cam and ignition timing. Additionally, the engine management system requires a signal from the CKP and TDC. Since your spark tester shows a spark, then the ignition components are apparently working. If you have fuel, spark, and compression, and the sensors are good, then timing is the only other variable. Checking for fuel injector pulse may be inconclusive if the timing is too far out and the computer is disabling them.
The sensors have nothing to do with the establishment of the base ignition timing.
Thanks I think I got it. I did not know there is a TDC or CYP sensor. Since the TDC sensor is looking for the pair of cylinders, me rotating the crank while the cam is static did not accomplish anything, which is what Evil-i is saying.
Some PCMs are programmed to disable the fuel injectors if the feedback from the sensors indicates the ignition timing is out of range (overly advanced or retarded) to protect the engine. The engine will not run if the CKP or TDC sensors have failed.
I will check to make sure I hooked those up correctly. Maybe the injectors are not firing because of a bad sensor connection. If I did connect the sensors incorrectly and my timing is good, would the engine run if I sprayed started fluid in the intake? Currently it will not turn over if I add starter fluid, making me think I messed up the timing.
Would the sensors indicate a problem if the timing was off by one cam tooth? I don’t think I am further off than that if I am off.
Thanks again for your help guys, I really appreciate it.
Yes, if the timing is in range and the ignition is working, and compression is good, then it would fire with the starting fluid. No fire with spark present means there is no compression or the timing is incorrect.
[quote=”nryder11220″ post=143441]If I did connect the sensors incorrectly and my timing is good, would the engine run if I sprayed starter fluid in the intake? Currently it will not turn over if I add starter fluid, making me think I messed up the timing.[/quote]
Starter fluid is an aggressive solvent, and will wash the oil film off the cylinder walls, giving you an “dry” engine that is harder to turn over. If the engine isn’t cranking at all when it’s been fed starter fluid, perhaps you have a weak battery, which could also be contributing to the no-start condition when the engine does crank.
[quote=”nryder11220″ post=143441]Would the sensors indicate a problem if the timing was off by one cam tooth? I don’t think I am further off than that if I am off. [/quote]
If you think the timing belt is questionable, you need to check it by lining up the cam and crank timing marks, and then rotate the engine 2 revolutions by hand (with plugs removed), and then recheck for cam and crank timing mark alignment. If everything lines up, the belt installation is good and the cam/crank phasing is correct.
Finally had some more time to look at this last night. I’ve attached pictures of my timing marks aligned. I tried to moving forward and backwards by one tooth and it did not look right. When I went one way I was in the ignition timing marks, the other way there was no mark at all on the crank pulley.
f you think the timing belt is questionable, you need to check it by lining up the cam and crank timing marks, and then rotate the engine 2 revolutions by hand (with plugs removed), and then recheck for cam and crank timing mark alignment. If everything lines up, the belt installation is good and the cam/crank phasing is correct.
I will try this tonight and let you know.
Starter fluid is an aggressive solvent, and will wash the oil film off the cylinder walls, giving you an “dry” engine that is harder to turn over. If the engine isn’t cranking at all when it’s been fed starter fluid, perhaps you have a weak battery, which could also be contributing to the no-start condition when the engine does crank.
The engine will crank but will not start when being fed starter fluid. I did drain the battery by trying to start it, so I hooked jumper cables up to my roommates car to make sure I was getting 12V. Still won’t start.
Yes, if the timing is in range and the ignition is working, and compression is good, then it would fire with the starting fluid. No fire with spark present means there is no compression or the timing is incorrect.
A friend of mine who I was on the phone with told me my compression sounded low when I was trying to start it. I bought a compression tester from harbor freight to check it. I’ve always tested it by feeling the exhaust pipe for pressure.
Compression test came out at ~130 psi for #1 cylinder, which is all I had time to do. I think that is low, but I’m not sure… the engine is cold. I did not see the gage drop so I think the system held pressure.
I did the intake manifold gasket and some smaller gaskets on the intake manifold. I also set the lash according to my Haynes manual. I’m thinking that if it’s not getting compression, then either its leaking or not getting enough air.
Thanks for everything guys! I really appreciate it.
It looks to me like your distributor might be 180 degrees off. IIRC, on cyl #1 TDC compression the distributor rotor should be pointing toward the coil rather than away from it. EDIT, never mind, that’s for the F22A1.
… well still got the no start problem, but now I’m a lot closer.
Me and my buddy really looked at this car this weekend hoping if we put our heads together we could figure it out.
I did have a weak battery, not enough cold cranking amps. Replaced that and the coil (cause my buddy works at a shop and gets a discount) and now I have a nice blue spark on all cylinders. Compression is right around 135 for all cylinders.
My buddy noticed my timing belt was a little loose, so we tightened it up using the 14 mm bolt on the tensioner. THANK GOD FOR THAT THING cause there was no way we were getting the crank pulley loose, we tried.
Important note: I never removed the crank pulley. I just slid the timing belt off the cam sprocket to remove the head cause I couldn’t get that crank pulley bolt off. The motors on the wrong side to tap on the starter, which I’m glad I thought about before I tried it. Nothing is easy on this car, even the front rotors are part of the Paindiaz family.
Double checked the timing after we made the adjustment by going around twice and we were still on the marks. The belt sits better on the pulley now, but If I was skipping time I would have crashed this thing by now.
Got out our celebration beers and …… still wouldn’t start.
Thing is, the cylinders are not getting any fuel. We took out #1 spark plug, poured a little gas in, and re-installed it. The motor sputtered and popped like it wanted to start, where as before it would crank but not catch.
So we took out the fuel rail and sure enough the injectors weren’t spitting out any fuel when it was being cranked.
The fuel rail was down in my basement which is pretty damp for about two weeks, My buddy said I could have ruined the injectors, which I didn’t even think about… rats. I just thought if they get wet the plunger would get seized. It is pretty humid down there though, but I don’t think that’s what’s wrong.
I tried putting a multi-meter to the injector terminals to see if it was getting the signal to pulse. My meter shows about a volt, but never goes down to zero, 0.7 V is the lowest I saw it go. That doesn’t make sense to me. I would think that it should go to some voltage, then drop to zero, then voltage, then zero.
Maybe I had the meter on the wrong setting or something, it is my back-up and I don’t know it as well as I should. My other buddy has been borrowing my meter for a while now.
From there it was dark and my buddy had to go.
I’m going to try to buy an injector and see if it will click when I hook the terminal to it and try to start the engine. I will know from there if I have bad injectors or if there is something else wrong.
The check engine light is flashing when I try to start the vehicle, but then it goes off. Maybe my timing is still off? Think it is worth it to try to jump the blue service port to see if there are any codes?
Some PCMs are programmed to disable the fuel injectors if the feedback from the sensors indicates the ignition timing is out of range (overly advanced or retarded) to protect the engine. The engine will not run if the CKP or TDC sensors have failed.
I know CPK sensor is good cause I get RPMs when I try to turn it over. My gut feeling is that if the TDC sensor went bad that the check engine light would stay on.
Any thoughts?
Thanks again guys!
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