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Topic
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The Background
I have a 1989 Honda Accord LXi, 2.0L L4 SOHC 16V, Manual Trans, 4-dr Sedan, Non-CARB (49 state), Fuel Injection, 248K mi.
I recently replaced the water pump (w/p) myself. Yep this is one of the external water pumps over by the alternator, not tied into the timing belt. Probably did not do things in the right order as when I pulled the w/p I did let a bunch of fluid loose. Also, I did not remove the timing belt cover, just removed the cover bolts on the side that effected the w/p. Yeah, it was some “fun” getting the w/p out from under the cover and wedging the new one back underneath, but I managed.
So when I got done buttoning everything up, refilling and bleeding air out of the system, I restarted the car. To my utter horror, I saw a steady, pencil-lead thick, stream of green fluid coming out from under the timing belt cover. Ugh!
So I shut things down, put my tail between my legs and drove down to the car guy that specializes in Hondas. He was too busy to take a look at it but scheduled me in 3 days later. I drove home. Had ZERO problems during the drive there and back: i.e. no high temps, no raised temp levels and no over heating. I watched the temp gauge more than the speedometer and I drove the local streets and not the freeway.
By the time I got back to the shop 3 days later there was no sign of a drip or a leak. The tech ran a pressure test on the system and reported a “small” leak in the radiator at the connection between the core and the tank. He didn’t say exactly where (top/bottom). He wanted $400 to slap a new radiator in. I declined figuring this is an easier fix than the w/p. As it turns out low end parts for everything are probably under $100. Subsequently I have seen no drips on the garage floor.
Questions & Discussion
So now the confusion and questions, if anyone would be so kind.
1. Leak or Residual? I am assuming that through the removal and installation I let a fair amount of fluid loose and that built up inside the timing belt cover? Once the engine started, the forces interior pushed the fluid out. If I had let it run 15-mintues it might have stopped dripping and been done? Does this make sense?
Alternatively I read a thread somewhere where the author mentioned “burn in” of the w/p seals before they were 100% sealed. Mentioned that to the mechanic and he didn’t salute the idea. Do new OEM w/p’s really need a break-in period to be sealed?
2. Which kind of radiator do I buy? When I put the VIN into the eStore Honda site I get TWO different brands of radiator: Toyo and Denso.
Plastic vs Aluminum
Now I have done some looking around and I “think” one of those is a copper core radiator and the other is an Aluminum core. So that is one thing. I have done a bit of looking around on the ‘net about the debate of copper (Cu) core vs aluminum (Al) core. From what I can tell is that Cu is the most efficient at heat transfer, while Al is the lightest. So for engines that run hot Cu might be better, where as if weight is an issue use the Al. I’m not sure if heat is an issue with this engine and I’m not racing so not sure if a few extra pounds would be an issue? So, if I can do it reasonably (i.e. one of the OEM parts I have found) is a Cu core, I’d probably do that.Plastic Tank Vs Metal Tank
Now all of that said, the tank still is plastic! Ugh. The car had the original radiator crack when the car bottomed out on a bump years ago. So, this is a replacement radiator and who knows if the original was Cu or Al? Since this appears to be a component that is vulnerable, I’d rather get a metal tank that could be repaired. In looking around I think I can find a metal tank radiator made here in the USA! Is this crazy thinking? Overkill?Plastic Tank Repair?
Then, in looking around body repairs, I stumbled on to Plastic Welding and plastic welders. Hmmm, why not just go to the auto parts store, borrow/rent their pressure tester, find the small leak and apply some plastic welding techniques?3. Coolant & Coolant Additives. The auto parts store said with my older car I needed “old style” fluid and not one of the new-fangled mixes. They sold me something that was supposedly straight ethylene glycol. I mixed that 50-50 with DISTILLED water. [checked with a hydrometer for protection to -20F] In the process I bought a bottle of Royal Purple additive and was going to add that. However, further reading in either the Service Manual or Haynes suggested that additives might be a bad plan. I returned the Royal Purple. So, I am wondering if the additive would help? I know way back, when the dealer did oil changes they always added some Wynns, so I am wondering if additive in the cooling system isn’t a good idea as well?
So yeah, too much time on my hands and probably over thinking too! I’m interested in what other know or can suggest. Thanks!
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Replies
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Not sure why you didn’t take cover off. It’s not really that much of a deal, but saves you hassle of “wedging” things in at crooked angle. Resulting seal damage.
1. DOES IT LEAK FROM COVER? That’s what you be worried about. It’s winter outside, as far as you moving, for short distances, might as well have no WP. It’s air flow and ambient temp that keeps it cool. Unless you in FL of course.
2. I fixed plastic rad before. It held for 2.5 years, until I dropped in a FORTY DOLLAR worse NEW rad. So is it worth fixing? I have access, for free, to all kinds of high end resins and fiber cloths. For you to buy all that stuff and do it right will cost several-fold the cost of rad.
bay.com/itm/like/300581350478?lpid=82Plastic welders will NOT work. JB Weld will NOT hold for too long. You have to use either carbon or fiberglass fabric and high end high temp resins to fix it. Plus, you must have “know how” on this, or you waste an hour at least.
Just buy a new rad and drop it in. Along with new hoses. Betcha old ones will NOT hold the very moment they were removed.[URL=http://s302.photobucket.com/user/ukrkoz/media/IMG_03141.jpg.html][IMG]http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn101/ukrkoz/IMG_03141.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Thanks for the kind reply! That is helpful.
Not sure why you didn’t take cover off. It’s not really that much of a deal, but saves you hassle of “wedging” things in at crooked angle. Resulting seal damage.
I didn’t take the cover off because it looked like I would need to remove the rest of the belts AND the pulleys on the crankshaft to do that. Getting the belt off the w/p was enough of a bear. The alternator was “frozen” in place even after removing the tensioner bolt and loosening the pivot bolt – it only moved a 1/2 to 3/4 in. [yeah, I beat on it] But the belt came off when I took the pulley off the w/p. Maybe there is some secret to loosening the alternator I missied?
Not sure what you mean by “resulting seal damage?” Is there a “seal” to the timing belt cover that is critical?
I am pretty sure that the w/p seal was not damaged in the process of wedging the w/p back in place.
[ol]- I was super careful,
- I used 3 VERY small specks(head of a pin) of permatex forma-gasket to hold it in place and
- it went in much easier than it came out. i.e. less wedging. Also the pressure test showed no leakage at the w/p and I have not observed any. So I hope that seal wasn’t damaged.
DOES IT LEAK FROM COVER? That’s what you be worried about. It’s winter outside, as far as you moving, for short distances, might as well have no WP. It’s air flow and ambient temp that keeps it cool. Unless you in FL of course.
Good point! I can probably skate through the winter without doing anything – just check and top off the coolant as needed during fill ups! I’ll also carry around a jug of antifreeze and DI water too. So I have some time to cogitate on which one to buy.
No, I have not seen the leak at all. It is not cracked as in ETCG’s video or what appears in your nice picture. I suspect it has a weeping type leak at a location where the Al core meets the plastic tank – either upper or lower.
But you are probably right- doesn’t make sense to mess with a repair when 55 buys a new one.
Thanks also for the link to the eBay rads. I have also found a ton of them on the discount part sites, big box store sites and everywhere else. Any insight as to what the difference is between Denso and Toyo?
But here’s a link which shows the possibilities:
http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1989/honda/accord/cooling_system/radiator.html
Everything from Al-Plastic to Cu-Plastic (Koyo) to Cu-Metal (CSF). With prices ranging up to $172 plus shipping. You think the shop was going to put one of those Cu-Metal tank units in for the $400 price? 😉
So the choices are a bit overwhelming.
I was more curious about WP seal. Gasket. If you were to force WP in at odd angle, it can be damaged.
Yes, I get it about belts and tight spots. But did you HAVE to remove all the belts, or it LOOKED LIKE it had to be done? On Civics of that age upper timing belt cover pops off with all belts in place and in about 5 minutes of cussing and undoing 4 tiny bolts. Many don’t even put it back on and drive around with T-belt showing. Kinda cool.
Your dilemma is very simple to solve. WHATEVER GIVES YOU BEST PRICE. On rad. Should be about 1 hr job. I’d GREATLY suggest replacing hoses same time and replacing factory clamps with worm gear ones, like I did.
That car may be of great value to you and may run for another 100 000 miles, but it is not worth tossing pricy parts at it.Flat surface cracks are even worse to patch, that crumbling neck I fixed. 90 degree angle is a good carbon tape anchor. Just seriously, don’t mess with it, replace rad. I could have possibly patched it, but it’d have been to be removed anyway to get on the bench, to degrease/roughen. Patching those at miniscule new one price is more of technical skill exercise than real need.
This adhesive works on pretty much any porous roughened surface:
http://www.fabtechsystems.com/pluseries-60-second-adhesive-220ml.htmland I have seen similar ones at HD. Separate dispenser gun is needed. It’s hell of strong resin. I’m a prosthetist, I sometimes bond parts together and let them out into real life using this adhesive. But surface prep is crucial, and it’s no can do on the car.
Hey ukrkoz – Thanks again for the discussion and advice!
[i]Yes, I get it about belts and tight spots. But did you HAVE to remove all the belts, or it LOOKED LIKE it had to be done? On Civics of that age upper timing belt cover pops off with all belts in place and in about 5 minutes of cussing and undoing 4 tiny bolts. Many don’t even put it back on and drive around with T-belt showing. Kinda cool.
[/i]Hey, what do I know? The attached diagrams show what I was faced with. TLooks like the timing belt is up against the block, and the cover has a hole in it for the crankshaft. Tthe pulley for the alternator/ water pump is next and then on the outside is the pulley for the A/C & power steering. Oh and there is a motor mount conveniently in the way too! 😉 So to get that timing belt cover off it looked like some of those pulleys needed to be freed? Thus I just took 4 bolts off the side where the w/p was.
But hey, I understand any confusion. After all it is a 25 yo car! LOL! In fact, me thinks there must be some software or website that shops log into when you call them up for a quote – something that suggests an outline of what is involved in the repair? I am supposing this because I figured a w/p replacement would be a 1-hour job for an experienced mechanic.
But I was told, “Oh no, one has to take off the timing belt to get to the w/p and thus the timing belt needs to be done too.” Two shops told me this without looking at the car.
I think I pizzed one of them off when I took the car to them and showed them the w/p was external & not associated with the timing belt. Then the dude told me there wasn’t enough room to work in there and they’d have to drop the engine to get to the w/p – 4-hrs labor. So I fixed it myself. Now that I know what to do, it might take me 3 hours to do the whole thing. Then again maybe less cause I already cleaned up and never-seized all of the bolts!
[i]This adhesive works on pretty much any porous roughened surface:
http://www.fabtechsystems.com/pluseries-60-second-adhesive-220ml.htmland I have seen similar ones at HD. Separate dispenser gun is needed. It’s hell of strong resin. I’m a prosthetist, I sometimes bond parts together and let them out into real life using this adhesive. But surface prep is crucial, and it’s no can do on the car. [/i]
Thanks for that too!
Your prior mention about backer/support material and this rang some bells. I did some plastic welding to hold a part in place, then coated the surface with epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth. A couple of layers and I had a solid joint- strong enough even to support the stresses of a spring loaded hinge. Sure it isn’t pretty, but it works and the replacement part is no longer available so I had little choice.
Also have done some metal repair on another car using fiberglass resin and Bill Hirsh’s Miracle Paint. Had the paint left over from some spot rust repair. Stuff is like Por-15 in that it dries HARD, so with a couple of layers of cloth for structure and paint as the resin I built a solid surface. Yeah, I know purists prefer new metal welded in place.
Anyway, thanks again!
What you have is identical to Civic set up. That timing cover can be removed in about 20 minutes. You REALLY need an impact wrench though, to undo crankshaft center bolt and set of Woodroff keys, as one it came with inevitably gets lost. Wheel removed, tire well cover removed, boom, done, access from top and bottom. Not that hard.
Like I said, it’s a nice exercise to fix that rad. Sort of “that’s what we, men, do, who needs a new part”. Uncle Red could have thrown in a suggestion or two too.
That’s not my point. Point is – is it feasible? I have all this stuff and more at work in quantities.
And yes, they were right. When you have crankshaft pulley removed, cover removed – heck, you THERE for timing and tensioner and bearing job anyway, so another $60 or so is well spent.All the cheap radiators I encounter are aluminum core with plastic end tanks. And they will go about 5 to 10 years or 50 to 100K miles. Then they leak between the tank and the core. There is the core, a gasket and then the tank is crimped on. Eventually the crimp weakens and the gasket leaks.
I think trying to seal an old radiator like this is futile. Seal one place and it will leak another. These things are throw-a ways.
I wouldn’t buy the least expensive radiator you can find but if you go just a little money more you should have a reasonably good radiator.
Thanks again!
What you have is identical to Civic set up. That timing cover can be removed in about 20 minutes. <font color="#0000ff][color=#0000ff]You REALLY need an impact wrench though, to undo crankshaft center bolt[/color”> and set of Woodroff keys, as one it came with inevitably gets lost. Wheel removed, tire well cover removed, boom, done, access from top and bottom. Not that hard.
An there is the crux of the matter for me! ; 🙁 ) No impact wrench! No Woodruf keys. Sigh.
What I have noticed is that most of these repairs are not something that requires a PhD degree to understand, BUT they do require a PhD degree level of experience or understanding how things work AND having the right tool(s) and there always seems to be one technique is always critical. That is why a good mechanic is worth his weight in gold – he/she knows how to get the job done, has the tools and knows how to keep it from being a two-day job.
But when one is curious like me, and perhaps a bit stubborn, they spend the time and get a bunch of “experiential learning” along the way, two-days or not!
I did take the upper timing belt cover off, and even removed the motor lifting piece (sorry for the wrong term). Also took the cruise control vacuum unit out of the way as well as moving the clutch and throttle cables and moving some vacuum lines. Didn’t think about removing the motor mount, but seeing Eric’s video (on something or another) I’d be inclined to do that in the future.
And yes, they were right. When you have crankshaft pulley removed, cover removed – heck, you THERE for timing and tensioner and bearing job anyway, so another $60 or so is well spent.
Well, two shops told me you HAD to remove the timing belt to get to the water pump, i.e. that the w/p was operated by the same belt as the timing belt. Apparently that in its purest form strains veracity. I think it might be the case for older Accords? I do however see your point. If one is going to remove all of the pulleys from the crankshaft to get the timing belt cover off, then might as well replace the timing belt. So a few more parts, but some extra labor to index it properly and later check and adjust the timing?
Thanks for the reminder about Uncle Red! I had forgotten him – point taken.
Hi barneyb, thank you for the info on Al-plastic radiators.
[i]
I think trying to seal an old radiator like this is futile. Seal one place and it will leak another. These things are throw-a ways.[/i]Yeah, I think maybe trying to seal the leak is a bad idea. Guess the “fix” appeals to something in the testosterone, apparently? “Oh look at me, I fixed it for $10 in glue and didn’t spend $100 on parts!” lol. But (see below) also penny-wise and pound foolish.
I dunno, as far as which one to buy, THAT is where I have fights with myself. Always heard one gets what one pays for so the inexpensive ones might be “cheap”/poor quality as well. Then there is the old adage running around in my head – if one is gunna fix something might as well fix it RIGHT! And the Camp Ground saying – leave it Better than you found it!
That point of view was driven home recently when seeing a plant, dig up a leaking pipe and there in that 20-ft hole were 3 “clamps” on the pipe which “fixed” prior leaks! Jeez. Seems a bit penny-wise pound foolish to not cut out the old bad section of the pipe and flange in new steel. Then the second, third and fourth excavation and band clamps wouldn’t have been necessary. Nor the environmental black-eye either.
So does doing it right mean getting a metal core and a metal tank? Otherwise how does one decipher a reasonably good radiator from the pack? This looks to be the population of the choices, short a custom job.:
http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1989/honda/accord/cooling_system/radiator.html
I put an all aluminum radiator in my wife’s car but it is a 2004 model with less than 60K. On a car your vintage if you get too fancy you could end up with a radiator that is in it’s prime when the car is junked. From your list above I’d go with the Denso (the second one from the top), a well know maker of radiators.
The important thing is to read the fine print. What you want is a radiator that is an OEM fit. Remember you need to mount fans on it. Also, if the inlet and outlet are in different places you may need custom hoses (in the sense that the standard ones won’t fit), another hassle.
😆
Woodroff key is a small rectangular piece of metal that goes into a slot between main pulley and crankshaft axle. They are sold in various size/shape kits for few bucks at any parts store.
As of impact wrench… You drive to nearest tire shop and ask them to break nut loose for you. Then, hand tight it so that you can man handle it. You go – slowly back home and do your job. Then drive back to same place and have them impact it for you. Give guy 5 bucks.
OR, you go to tool rental place and rent electrical/cordless for $40. Some say, 18V cordless are actually more powerful than decent compressor air impact wrenches.[quote=”barneyb” post=121107] From your list above I’d go with the Denso (the second one from the top), a well know maker of radiators.
The important thing is to read the fine print. What you want is a radiator that is an OEM fit. Remember you need to mount fans on it. Also, if the inlet and outlet are in different places you may need custom hoses (in the sense that the standard ones won’t fit), another hassle.[/quote]
Good points! I think Denso is one of the OE manufacturers, Toyo the other? I guess others manufacture to OEM standards?
I found some Cu core/plastic rads for just under $100 so competitive with the other and am tempted to go that direction.
Depo Brand – [72.38 +free shipping]
http://tinyurl.com/ljbs8huTYC – [94.66 + free shipping]
http://tinyurl.com/ppgp9ekDepo looks to be “off brand” while the TYC seems to be more serious, OEM like.
Looks like the upper hose is key and due a replacement – small leak evident from crystallized coolant at the thermostat housing termination. Can get an $8 version (Dayco) or pay up for the Goodyear one ~$21. Seems like the lower hoses are all listed as “cut to fit.” Car is 5-speed so no A/T hoses to worry about. I’ll reuse the overflow hose.
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