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Hi Eric/Everyone,
Original symptoms were that heat out of the air vents was barely warm to the feel (around 70°F-85°F but had no problems with engine overheating. Was also due for a timing belt job so not only did I change the water pump, but also flushed all coolant ’till clear distilled water came out and replaced with new coolant. Now, have the typical symptoms of air pockets in cooling system, but I can never finish burping the air out of the system, here are the steps I’ve taken:
– For first full flush, flushed from the drain cock (did not drain from the bleeder valve on engine block), then manually flushed all coolant out of the heater core, connecting clear hoses to both hoses, introducing distilled water thru the top hose while simultaneously draining it from the bottom hose into a container, used a wet vac to suck ’till water came clear. Re-installed hoses, closed drain cock, refilled radiator with distilled water and ran heater, bingo! heat at 160°+. So, continued flushing procedure with distilled water and Prestone flush ’till the majority of distilled water came out clearer from both radiator and heater core. Got impatient and committed biggest rookie/ignorant mistake of sucking all water using a wet vac on lower rad hose, no cap on radiator, then I put shop air into rad cap hole and blew compressed air to flush remaining water (I know, drop hammer on head here for introducing air into system) and left engine empty. Continued with timing belt job:
– Replaced timing belt and at same time replaced water pump with OEM unit, etc..
– Used spill-free funnel and refilled coolant with long life 50/50.
– First test drives car drives smoothly, all good, except that air out of heater vents is now back to 75°-85° and engine overheats at high speeds but may cool down when slowing down.
– Burped system further, lots of bubbles in spill-free funnel at first, less bubbles as time progresses but never perfect, car still overheating
– Replaced thermostat with OEM unit, only this time I also drained coolant in engine via the bleeder valve, emptied all coolant (5 qts), bought vacuum fill kit for coolant, created a vacuum in system down to 26 atms, vacuum held for 15+ mins so I know there are no leaks in cooling system.
– Performed compression test on rad cap as well, pressure upheld without even a slight movement for over 15 mins.
– Vacuum filled the coolant, then with spill-free funnel in place and full of coolant, I opened bleeder valve on the engine block with a hose attached, allowed to drain air ’till only solid coolant drained from the valve making sure I never ran out of coolant in spill-free funnel.
– Performance has improved vastly, heat thru vents now gets to 105°-115°, but after a long drive or a heavy-load drive (flooring accel on a long hill) engine will start overheating again and heat from vents cools again to 80°’s. Allowing engine to cool off for about 15mins car will drive again for a while
– I’ve burped the car more since, parking on a steep incline while putting spill-free funnel with coolant and revving engine to 3,000RPMs, then idle speed and continuously tapping top and bottom rad hoses (helps to get more air bubbles this way).
– Also, noticed at times that when revving engine hot, lower rad hose will collapse ’till I let go of the throttle.
I will perform a leak down test on all cylinders but other than the perpetual ‘air bubble’ I don’t have any of the other symptoms I’ve read typical of head gasket damage (engine idles smoothly, no heavy white smoke out of exhaust, only white during cold starts, no milky oil and no smoke out of coolant AND did not have overheating problem prior to flushing, only low temp when running heater ).
I have to note that it appears to have improved the more we burp it, but we can not get it back to the 160°+ we got after the first flush AND we still get engine overheated.Sorry for long post, but I’m stumped here, been over 3 weeks of burping daily, including vacuum filling with minor improvements but still no 100% success.
Any and all suggestions welcomed and appreciated,
Thanks,
Juan
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In summary:
1. Original problem was that very cool air coming out of the vents when the heater was activated. Engine was not overheating at all.
2. Did multiple flushes with distilled water, including the heater core which had a lot of crud and dirt
3. After first flush got 160°+ air out of the vents, so appears that all heater components work fine, just needed to clean the core.
4. After multiple flushes and stupidly introducing air into the system, engine now overheats. For all tends and purposes and after reading Eric’s symptoms of air in the cooling system I’d say I have air in the cooling system, I have the exact symptoms Eric describes in his “Engine Overheating” FAQ, except for the fluctuating idle, mine’s pretty consistent and steady, I’ve only seen it go down a couple of times briefly
From Eric’s post on engine overheating:found here:
http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/what-to-do-when-your-engine-overheats#EngineOverheating
[b][color=#ff8800]- You or a garage just finished replacing a head gasket, water pump, intake gasket, radiator, heater core, or coolant hose, and now that the work is done, you have an overheat condition.
– You have a condition where the vehicle starts to overheat, then suddenly drops to normal.
– You have issues getting consistent heat from the vents.
– Your idle fluctuates up and down and will not level out.[/color][/b] <<<This is the only symptom I've seen about once or twice only and briefly
5. I’ve done a cooling system pressure test which passed with flying colors
6. Drained all coolant again (got about 5 qts out), drained coolant from bleeder valve on engine block, then Purchased and performed a vacuum fill twice (pressure held at 26 atms for over 15 mins), even purged the engine bleeder valve while holding the spill-free funnel full of coolant to ensure no air got re-introduced.
Performance has improved, less and less overheats and heat out of the vents is now up to 105°-115°, but will still overheat from time to time at which point heat in vent lowers to 75°-85°.
Things to note: water pump and tstat are brand new and OEM versions, not aftermarket. Replaced them just after first flushing (where I got 160°+) during timing belt job.
Question, do I just have a stubborn air pocket I haven’t been able to get rid of? Are the ’03 TL’s known for this? I will be buying a leak down pressure kit today to perform the test on all cylinders to dismiss any doubt about a head gasket problem, but I wasn’t having this problem before I flushed the coolant in the first place. Seems that no matter how much I bleed it and burp it, new bubbles come out while bleeding it, especially when tapping the two main hoses while revving it.Also, I’ve recently noticed that sometimes when the engine’s hot and I rev it the lower rad hose collapses, then restores when I release the throttle
Please excuse the lengthy posts,
Thank you all again.‘Also, I’ve recently noticed that sometimes when the engine’s hot and I rev it the lower rad hose collapses, then restores when I release the throttle’
Looks like hose needs replacing.@hambys Auto
Yes, fans come on when called upon I guess. Thermostat and water pump are new, less than a month with OEM units. Btw, thanks for taking the time to assist me…@Cj1
Thought so, but isn’t the underlying problem something else causing a vacuum? Is it suppose to create a vacuum there?with the engine cold and the radiator cap open slowly squeze a coolant hoze to beed any air out.
test your coolant temp sensor with a mutimeter(im gonna guess you know how to use google)
use a block tester(you can rent one from a auto parts store for free)
if your radiator cap isnt full thenlook around for any coolant leaks
WELL YOU ARE RIGHT THE PROBLEM IS MOST LIKELY YOU STILL HAVE AIR IN IT OR SOMETHING IS ALLOWING AIR TO GET IN IT. I NO IT SOUNDS LIKE THAT YOU HAVE DONE EVERY THING RIGHT . I USE A AIR LIFT SYSTEM AND DON T HAVE THIS PROBLEM MOST OF THE TIME BUT I CAN TELL YOU IF THAT HOSE IS SUCKING TOGETHER THAT 99% OF THE TIME IT IS AIR.
@8glover
Did squeeze the hoses while cold. No bubbles. I do like your suggestions of testing the coolant temp sensor, I also just bought a leak down tester to check all cylinders so I’ll report on that after I finish the tests. I’ve tested the rad cap and it passed for pressure, but not sure how to test the pressure valve in the cap. I think it’s working, I’ve seen coolant from the reservoir go down (my guess returning to the rad) after an overheat, but once I did see the reservoir full of coolant after an overheat which never returned to the rad. reason why I didn’t suspect the cap completely is that I’d inadvertently released some of the pressure in the system by opening the rad cap before I’d noticed that the reservoir was full and while it was still under a lot of pressure, thus releasing a lot of pressure and some coolant at that time. Since then, I tested the cap by overheating the engine again and when I saw coolant on the reservoir I allowed it to cool ’till the coolant level in the reservoir lowered again. There’s no leak I can see anywhere so my guess the coolant returned to the rad via the cap’s pressure valve, thus assuming it’s working. I have not replaced the cap yet.
Thanks,@hambys auto
I actually bought the AIRLIFT vacuum fill kit (excellent kit) and that’s what I used to vacuum fill it. I thought it would have fixed all my problems with this stubborn bubble(s), but of course, they had another idea. Almost feels like air is still leaking after all the bleeding so I will perform a leak down test, hoping that it’s just stubborn air pockets. I’ll report results of the leak down test once I complete it. I was wondering if any of you with much more experience ever run into such a stubborn situation with trapped air, and still being that it was in fact just air trapped in the system?
Million thanks again for your feedback and helpforgot about the reservoir as long as your radiator is full at all times you shouldnt have any leaks.
Get a block tester to test for a blown head gasket cause that can cause coolant loss that wont drip to the floor.
Final solution: took a while but…
When during yet another attempt to burp it, as usual I turned the heat to the highest level and turned the cabin fans off, made sure the heater valve was in the open position as always. Then, I noticed that the return hose from the heater core was completely cold even after a few cycles of the radiator fans. Of course this meant the heater core was clogged. Interesting thing is that it had not been clogged before, and I’d flushed ALL the coolant at least twice (see very first two posts for a complete description of what I did). I’d obtained nice clean clear water after the initial flushes, so I knew (at least I thought I did) that the core had been flushed completely. So what gives? Well, here’s what I found:1. After ascertaining that the heater core was clogged, I proceeded to unclog it, and sure enough after removing the two heater hoses, I could see brownish/gold/rust color crud or sand-like substance.
2. I connected two clear hoses to the existing heater core lines, drained all remaining coolant, then refilled it with water. I used a typhoon air gun to blow all of the water out from the core. Thru the clear hoses I was able to see the crud flushing out, and proceeded in flushing the core at least 2 more times.
3. after the 3rd gallon of water flush, I refilled the core only with CLR solvent. waited for 15mins and then flushed the CLR with water..The powerful typhoon air gun did the rest. I fed the HC a nice full gulp of powerful compressed air which flushed all the fluid and crud collected in the H.C.
4. I did this continuously, pouring about half a quart of water into the H.C. each time and flushing it w/ the typhoon gun, and crud just continued to come out. All in all I used over 15 gallons of water to flush out at least 95%-98% of the crud I say this because no matter how many times I flush it, rusty crud still continues to come out, albeit I was down to just a few sand grains when i decided to end the flushing.
5. Then, I Vacuum filled the H.C. with coolant again using airlift system, reconnected the hoses and then burped the entire cooling system with the coolant funnel. Lots of air bubbles but this time, voila!!! Heat is now consistent around 160-163°F and car no longer overheats.
I assume the crud was just piling up inside the hoses causing air to get trapped in the core ’till it was enough to clog the return hose altogether.
I will do yet another flushing sequence in a month or so to get any remaining crud that collects at the bottom of the hoses, it appears that I loosened a lot with the CLR flush. Only puzzling thing is that the crud continued to pile up even after 15 gallons+ of flushing, granted it finally became less and less, but not sure why that is, i speculate that the core is slowly deteriorating as we speak.
Final lesson is to flush thoroughly with an air gun (I used the Typhoon since it’s much more powerful than your std air gun). Make sure that not only does the liquid/water coming out of the core is clear, but also check to ensure that you clear any rusty-sand deposits as well, very crucial.
I wanted to thank all you guys that tried to help me, your input and that of ETCG was priceless, and I wanted to post my solution so maybe someone will benefit from my experiences. ETCG was right, air caused the lack of heat in the car, this time the air got clogged/trapped in the heater core by way of sandy deposits
Special thanks to these guys:
Cj1
hambys Auto
8gLoverCheers
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