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Hi ETCG community, (and Hi Eric!)
I have (well it belongs to my dad) a 2003 Saab 9-3 SE Convertible. As you might (or might not) have known, 2003 was an interesting year for the 9-3. The first generation 9-3 (second generation 900) (1998-2002) was based on the GM2900 platform, and it used an actual Saab engine. My car uses a Saab B205R, and has a high output turbo (Mitsubishi TD04HL) However in 2003, they redesigned the 9-3, killed off the hatchback, and replaced it with a sports sedan. These new cars were based on GM’s Epsilon platform, and actually used GM designed engines (probably to save money)The interesting part, is the 9-3 convertible based on the GM2900 platform stuck around in 2003 even with the new Epsilon based 9-3s, and it wasn’t until 2004 that the 9-3 convertible was redesigned on the Epsilon platform. The older Saab H series engines (B2XXX) had issues with sludge thanks to the 7,000 miles oil change suggestion, poor PCV design, etc. Only way to find out if the engine has sludge is to remove the oil pan or valve cover. Sometime ago, my car (before it became my car) developed a clicking noise. It sounds like lifters, so I thought I would ask if the lifter(s) fail, can damage be done to the engine? Should noisy lifter(s) cause any concern?
The car specifies on the manual to use semi or fully synthetic, but was later revised to specify ONLY synthetic oil meeting the ACEA A3 standards. Why read the manual (my dad’s logic) so since he bought this car used in 2010 (54,000 miles) he always put in regular non synthetic 5W-30. Just a few weeks ago, he finally made the switch to fully synthetic like I told him too. I even printed out a list of oils meeting the ACEA A3 standards. He brought it to a shop, and clearly ignored my list, because they put in Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-30.. Looked up the data sheet for it, and what do you know? It isn’t the correct stuff. They couldn’t even have used the Penzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40 (meets the ACEA A3 requirements) I suggested he bring it to a mechanic to have it inspected for sludge, and have the possible sludge removed, but he being the cheap guy he is, doesn’t care enough to do so.
So that sums that up.
Next question has to do with the Aisin 50-40LE (4 speed automatic transmission) The Saab owner’s manual for this car is for MY2002, and technically that is what this car is even though they market it as a MY2003. The Owner’s Manual states to put in “Texaco Texamatic Dexron III, mineral oil based” transmission fluid… meanwhile the car also came with a little “Saab 9-3 Convertible 2003 Quick Reference” booklet, and it says “Use Saab Type 3309 AT Fluid only. See authorized Saab dealer.” This car has 89,000 miles, and a transmission fluid change is due at 90,000 miles. So what do I put in? Texaco Texamatic Dexron III is pretty much impossible to find, so would I use something like Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF? I would think that since 3309 is also a specification that Mobil ATF 3309 would be just fine. Just want to have the correct fluid installed. The next oil change, I will do myself since he is lazy and can’t get it done correctly. I will use Mobil 1 0W-40 (meets the ACEA A3 standards) (also easier than others that meet the ACEA A3 standard to find)
I feel like I’ve finished writing the first page or so of my mid term essay, so I’ll stop here.
Here is a link to a YouTube video of the engine noise https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgPnF68-v_c
Thanks for reading!
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As for the type of oil to use, use what’s printed on the oil cap or in the owners manual for the viscosity. If it calls for 0W 40 synthetic, go ahead and use that. However, I don’t think it calls for that. If memory serves, it calls for 5W 30. If that’s the case, go ahead and use a synthetic 5W 30 and NOT a 0W 40 for best results. In truth if that’s what was printed on the oil cap, you’re dad was correct in using that oil. As for the engine noise, it sounds normal to me. What you might want to check for however is a loose timing belt. A loose timing belt can cause engine noise. More info on noises here.
http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/diagnosing-noises-in-your-car
As for transmission fluid, according to this chart you can use regular Dextron III.
http://www.76oil.ru/pics/vzaimo/transmission_fluids.pdf
Try not to go against the engineers recommendations. It may be tempting to use a different oil viscosity than what is called for but it’s never a good idea. In fact I have a video on this very topic coming out July 30.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Hi Eric! Thanks for the reply. The owner’s manual states
Basic recommendations for Saab engines
• SAE 5W-30 or 0W-30, 5W-40.
The oil should be semi or fully synthetic and fulfill grade re- quirements for ACEA A3/B3, API SJ or higher. In addition to API and ACEA the ILSAC GF-3 specification is approved for use in applicable markets.
Fully synthetic oils with viscosity’s 0W-40/50 of well known brands and fulfilling minimum ACEA A3/B3 are also recom- mended, especially for extreme driving conditions.Later on, they revised the manual and had a service bulletin specifying FULLY SYNTHETIC only (after the engine failures) I created the same thread on SaabCentral, so here’s a link.
http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406593
What do you think of the advice I’m getting there?
Sounds like good advice to me. Especially the checking of the oiling tubes for the timing chain. However, this is sounding like more of a job then maybe a apprentice mechanic can handle. I’ve seen people your age doing this sort of stuff but they were already quite experienced.
I mean, I don’t know your situation and there are only two ways to learn car mechanics and the other is school. But if you need the car for transportation I’d suggest taking it to a shop for examination. Learn to do all the maintenance work and have some tools before diving in.
BTW, I enjoy seeing all the extended oil drain advice coming back to bite the makers in the butt. Too bad Saab isn’t still around to enjoy this.
That engine sounds dreadful. I would not be driving it with that condition as I would be concerned with major damage even if you have no check engine light yet.
I remember reading an item on these cars a while ago from a SAAB guy and looked it up again today. Here are his comments:
QUOTE
I am a saab technician and i just want to let you know what we have been finding out lately. 99′-2003 9-3’s and 9-5’s are experiencing engine failures, noises and oil problems. at my shop we conclude it is because of a few things, most notably that the oil change interval is too short. saab recommends semi-synthetic oil for these cars and to change it and the filter every 5k miles. i dont think that is a good idea. we are seeing many, many of these cars with huge sludge problems. the problem is either oil breaking down prematurely, oil being cooked by catalytic converter (located directly underneath oil pan), or that 5k miles is too long to wait to change oil. i recommend that EVERY saab owner switch to full synthetic oil and change it every 5k miles. if you don’t want to switch to full synthetic, stick with semi-synthetic and go back to 3k mi. oil change intervals. we have had many engines with internal parts just coated with thick, nasty tar. these cars either have all or some of the following symptoms: oil pressure light on/flickering, timing/balance chain noise (rattling), broken rods, oil consumption, buzzing noise from oil cavitating. on all of the cars we look at, there is a problem with sludge and most have stuck to the owners manual for service intervals. this stinks big time. because we love these cars. spread the word. up those oil changes. we really need somebody to come up with a way to shield the oil pan from the heat of the cat converter. dont be surprised if you see a lot of saabs with this problem. we (our dealership) bought 10 used saabs from an auction in manheim a few months ago. out of those 10 cars, 2 had noisy timing chains and one had the engine blow up on the customer after they had it a month. on all occasions the oil pick up tube screens were packed with debris. this is causing oil starvation to critical components. just thought you should know.UNQUOTE
Looking at this have a guess what the noise is. If I were you I would get the noise checked out by a someone who knows those engines well (as the timing chain may be stretched or otherwise defective and may need to be replaced). I would also be dealing with the sludge issue your engine most likely has.
As for the ATF, I would check with a SAAB dealer service center on what you should use. Don’t assume that Mobil 1 product is the right one for the transmission. You mentioned the Texaco recommendation in your post. Texaco do the Texamatic 7045E ATF which is a Dexron IIIG spec ATF and it may or may not be suitable. In any event the SAAB dealer may well retail the correct 3309 ATF for your car.
With the engine oil, I don’t recall reading a manual where so many different grades of engine oil were recommended. The manual, as you have described, does say 0-40 is recommended in the correct spec and I also notice that the Mobil 1 site does specify their Mobil 1 0w-40 as being suitable for that engine.
Cameron
[quote=”barneyb” post=104730]Sounds like good advice to me. Especially the checking of the oiling tubes for the timing chain. However, this is sounding like more of a job then maybe a apprentice mechanic can handle. I’ve seen people your age doing this sort of stuff but they were already quite experienced.
I mean, I don’t know your situation and there are only two ways to learn car mechanics and the other is school. But if you need the car for transportation I’d suggest taking it to a shop for examination. Learn to do all the maintenance work and have some tools before diving in.
BTW, I enjoy seeing all the extended oil drain advice coming back to bite the makers in the butt. Too bad Saab isn’t still around to enjoy this.[/quote]
True, but when it happens, who pays? I’m sure it takes time for the sludge to build up, and the car may be out of warranty by the time the engine fails.. It bites the owner instead. Although the owner should still know better in my opinion.
The main issue here is that my parents seem concerned that the car might fall on my head (they apparently don’t understand what a jack stand is even though I have explained it numerous times) Also my dad is cheap. He told me “Its made that noise for a while now and runs fine. I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it” He might not lose sleep, but he might lose money. I’m tempted to pull the valve cover off and check around for any signs of sludge and go from there. The car will be having it’s transmission fluid changed soon (at 90,000) miles, so my dad will “ask” about the noise. Not sure how familiar the guy is with the sludge issue on these engines. I don’t know what the big problem is to get them to stop preventing me from working on the car and jacking it up. Sure hell could break loose and kill me, but I could also get shot when I go somewhere, or hit by a car. :dry:
Oh, and the other annoying part, my dad doesn’t want me to do any brake work on any of the cars since the brakes are such an important thing. Yes they are, but they are also not complicated (by the looks of things, and the helpful ETCG videos) I don’t think someone who has seen how a brake pad replacement goes, has the service manual for the car, and has hands can screw up a simple brake pad replacement.. or am I going over my head.
Eric, I forgot to add, the engine uses a timing chain. How long do those usually last, and can a loose timing chain cause that noise? Someone also mentioned that a loose balance chain can make noise..
If the owners manual says you can run that oil, you can run that oil. Just know the the higher the second number, the less the oil will flow at low temperatures. What can happen is that the top end gets starved for oil if it’s too thick. If that happens it will actually increase wear. I have a video on this coming out on July 30, 2014.
You don’t need to remove the valve cover to look for sludge buildup. You can often just remove the oil cap.
Timing chains should last the life of the vehicle if properly maintained. Although issues can sometimes pop up to cause premature failure. Usually lubrication issues.
Keep us posted.
“True, but when it happens, who pays? I’m sure it takes time for the sludge to build up, and the car may be out of warranty by the time the engine fails.. It bites the owner instead. Although the owner should still know better in my opinion.”
The maker pays by earning a bad reputation. Put too many lemons on the road and people go elsewhere to buy new cars and trucks.
That question is something for Saab to answer, not me. I can say that most dealers will accommodate a good customer if a situation arrises. The reason is they have a service history with the dealer. Service done outside the dealer is open to interpretation. What I mean by that is if you have the vehicle dealer serviced it should have been done ‘properly’ according to the manufacturer. If the service is done outside the dealer it’s anyones guess if it was done properly. Also, there is the matter of the dealer wanting to retain a customer.
Bottom line, find out what you’re dealing with first. Don’t assume the worst until you have reason to. As I stated, your dad didn’t do anything wrong by using the oil he used. As long as it was changed at regular intervals, it’s not likely there will be any significant sludge buildup. Sludge buildup normally happens as a result of extended oil changes or faults in the PCV system. At least that’s been my experience. You really can’t go wrong with regular oil changes.
Sorry for the late reply. A few things to note. The oil cap is combined with the oil dipstick, so looking down the narrow tube is difficult. As for the dealership, my dad bought the car used from Village Saab, and never went back. He just goes to some gas station with a backyard mechanic, or for more concerning issues, he goes to a place in Topsfield MA (again, not SAAB authorized, but they have been around longer).
Sludge buildup normally happens as a result of extended oil changes or faults in the PCV system. At least that’s been my experience. You really can’t go wrong with regular oil changes.
^^^True, but a fun fact here is that these Saab B2XX series engines were known for sludge issues, so much so, that Saab made 6 different revisions to the PCV system to fix the sludge issues. The 6th attempt is the best (obviously) but still not perfect.
Barneyb- Sure the brand suffers, but Saab isn’t around (at least in the US) to suffer. 🙁
Another interesting tidbit is that this noise starts after then engine has warmed up. The noise keeps getting louder until the temp gauge is in the middle (where it should be) and the noise stays consistent after that. But from a cold start, no ticking noise.
Be careful obsessing about noises on older vehicles. It’s a rabbit hole you may not want to go down. Sometimes you just need to settle for what you have and trust that it will be OK.
http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/diagnosing-noises-in-your-car
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