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I’ve got a (U.S.A.) 2002 OZ Rally Lancer that’s got 218K miles on it with several problems I’m trying to chase down. It’s got two codes on it that it’s had for quite a while but they’ve never affected the idle or performance before – P0402 and P0421 for the EGR and first catalytic converter. Mileage for combined city and highway for years has been reaching up to 32MPG until recently when a miss that usually occurred once shortly after the engine reaches full temperature has now become much more frequent. Also I’ve been experiencing very rough acceleration from a standing start even though I’ve cleaned out the throttle body (and there was a bunch of gunk in there). I usually manage that problem by gently accelerating till the butterfly valve in the throttle body is more open then I’m usually OK. A while back I did replace the O2 sensor on the first catalytic converter but I’ve not been able to dislodge the 2nd to replace it. Tried the special tool from AutoZone and then Channel Locks but had to quit before I tore a hole in the cat’s exhaust tube.
I’ve wondered about the Idle Control Valve. I pulled the original out and tried to clean it, couldn’t take it apart like the guy on YouTube because the stem was too far in so I couldn’t take the brown, twist lock cover off. This, apparently,seized the original one completely so I went and got another from the local junk yard. That one (from an 05 Lancer but physically identical) would actually retract about 1/16″ when you turned the ignition switch to “On” and did help a little with the idle problem originally but not now. How do you tell if that valve is actually working or not?
Today I discovered the purge solenoid valve for the vapor canister next to the EGR solenoid just below the intake manifold was the source of a regular clicking noise once the engine reached operating temperature. When I pulled the wires off of it the clicking stopped. Is this click normal? I don’t recall it doing this from times past. Could it be broken internally?
The actual EGR valve does work. I can put a little suction on it and it will all but shut down the engine if I keep it open a little. I’ve also replace its solenoid valve but I’ve never been able to detect any application of vacuum to the EGR valve while driving once operating temperature was reached. I put a T in the vacuum line to the EGR valve and ran a line from that to a gauge that I taped to the windshield. No vacuum was ever indicated once normal temperature was reached. I checked for kinks, too.
I also pulled the signal connections for each fuel injector on each cylinder to see if there was an RPM drop and there was. I think this produced an additional code I’d not seen before in the form of a misfire notice but only for one cylinder. I’ve cleared the codes to see if that one comes back. The others will I know for sure.
I have gone through and checked the plugs, cleaned and regapped them. The oil is still good as well as the air filter. The MAF sensor I cleaned a few months ago with the special MAF sensor cleaner. I’m pretty much at a loss as to where to go from here unless it’s that second O2 sensor that’s throwing everything off. The engine works very well up until it reaches operating temperature and then goes to pot, it seems. At 218K miles I’m worried about the timing belt who’s idler squeals like crazy quite often but that’s a huge amount of work or a $630 bill from my trusted mechanic in town. His time is certainly worth the money but I gotta have the money first!
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Actually I did that, too, when I ran across the troubleshooting section that covered it in the FSM. It’s clear, the internal seat moves with little effort when you depress it with a nail or something similar and I can blow through it one way but not the other. It’s also impossible to put it in backwards. Give me a 50-50 chance and I probably would have!
One thing that occurred to me was back last Fall when I replaced the battery the computer evidently had to re-learn everything that it had known which took about a week and a half before everything smoothed out. I’d put some injector cleaner in the gas tank and this did help things on the way to getting better. I saw Eric’s video or statement on not liking injector cleaner but I thought I’d try it one more time to see if this didn’t change things with this old car. Please forgive me Eric! You never know about our gas around these parts in West Texas.
Reading the entire thread, here’s what I would do:
Your entire set of troubles may be due to a problem that a recall was issued for.
There is a known computer programming issue causing P0421 on the 2002-2005 Lancer and Mitsubishi will still reprogram the computer under the recall.
They will no longer replace the manifold mounted catalytic converter, which they had done for a limited time/mileage.As for the P0402, the EGR may not consistently be returning to the proper position and that would cause a rough idle, hesitation and fuel economy issues.
Excessive backpressure from a restricted/clogged cat can set the P0402 when it causes the EGR to not seat or not remain seated.
According to what you’ve posted, you did some vacuum testing but did not test for excessive backpressure.
Raise and hold the RPMs at 3000 and watch the gauge.
If the vacuum slowly decreases, then you have an exhaust system restriction causing excessive backpressure.
Testing can also be done using a backpressure gauge and comparing the values to the FSM listed standards.As for the expensive timing belt issue–you really can’t delay for long….
Yours is an ” interference engine ” meaning that the valves will hit the pistons once the timing belt slips or breaks.
That will ruin the engine.My hope—and I would ask the mechanic before authorizing the work–is that your mechanic will also be replacing the water pump when he replaces the tensioner and timing belt.
This is a wise move, since the timing belt has to come off for water pump replacement and saves you a bundle of cash down the road by preventing water pump failure.Since you have the FSM, you can follow the steps listed in the P0402 troubleshooting section.
This link explains some things regarding EGR issues
http://repairpal.com/OBD-II-Code-P0402
This link details the Mitsubishi recall
https://www.autocodes.com/uploads/mitsubishi/05-0001.pdf
This link is just for those who may not think stuck EGR valves cause loss of fuel economy or hesiatation :
http://troubleshootmyvehicle.com/gm/4.3L-5.0L-5.7L/stuck-open-egr-valve-tests-1If you’re talking about Emissions Recall EMR-05-001 RevII from December of ’05 then I’ve talked about this with the local Mitsubishi dealer AND called Mitsubishi about it as well. I still have it on my computer’s desktop as I haven’t cleaned it off in a while.
The dealer wouldn’t do the update to the PCM without $$$ crossing their palms and the Mitsubishi lady flatly refused to recognize the recall’s existence when I talked to her giving her all the information on the recall’s heading, etc. #1, I’m not the original owner and, #2, the recall’s too old to bother with so I’m stuck with the responsibility of any repairs to this end.
Yes, I hear you on the timing belt issue. A mechanic friend has mentioned the fact that the engine will definitely eat itself when the belt lets go so this has me sweating it every time I make a trip to town in it. I’ve looked at the parts packages for this and they do include the belt, water pump and idler. The engine quite often has a belt squealing when its turned on and I’ve never witnessed any of the outer pulleys remaining stagnant while the belt runs over it so that’s what led me to think it’s way past time for this repair. So, pour more money into a car that’s running out of trade-in/resale value or wait till it craters and spend 3x more for its replacement? Either way, bend over, cars own you, not the other way around.
I will re-do the vacuum test though and report back.
Thanks to all for the advice!
The actual EGR valve does work. I can put a little suction on it and it will all but shut down the engine if I keep it open a little. I’ve also replace its solenoid valve but I’ve never been able to detect any application of vacuum to the EGR valve while driving once operating temperature was reached. I put a T in the vacuum line to the EGR valve and ran a line from that to a gauge that I taped to the windshield. No vacuum was ever indicated once normal temperature was reached. I checked for kinks, too.
You mentioned some attempts to find a vacuum leak. A vacuum leak can also be diagnosed by looking at fuel trims with an OBDII scanner. What do your long/short fuel trims look like:
– when idling
– at > 3000 rpmA lean condition (> ~10%) at idle that decreases as the throttle opens is consistent with a vacuum leak.
You can track a vacuum leak cleanly by releasing propane gas with an unlit torch in the vicinity of the suspected leak. Decrease in short term fuel trim means you got some propane into the intake.
Ok, finally had time to do a vacuum test again. Sorry, I’ve got several projects on my platter. Raised the rpm up to 3000 and the vacuum went up and then down about as fast as it rose. No slow decrease.
I also put about half a bottle of STP Injector Cleaner for high mileage cars in the tank threw a little more gas in the tank to mix it well and then took it for a drive. Almost, *almost* immediately there was an increase in power, the miss was almost completely gone and things were now considerably better than my 1974 VW Super Beetle which the Lancer had drifted below in performance and this was with the A/C on. Anything that beats the bug is gold in my book given what was happening before. There was still a slight miss starting from a standing stop so it may be a good thing to look into getting a new EGR valve.
Not saying things are totally fixed. I still stress bullets about the timing belt but I’m saving up for that. Hope I make it.
I’m guessing, however, that I may have an issue with injectors. I was totally surprised to find out there is no fuel filter on these cars other than a sock in the fuel tank. I also wonder if something is going on between the tank and the engine.
[quote=”ShadeTreeTX” post=187428] Raised the rpm up to 3000 and the vacuum went up and then down about as fast as it rose. No slow decrease. [/quote]
Your description of the vacuum test concerns me.
The reading when RPMs are held at 3K should have been the same as the idle vacuum.If what happened is what’s shown here in #14, then the exhaust is restricted
http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfmRead the section on exhaust restriction here:
https://actron.com/content/engine-performance-testing-vacuum-gaugeHope you get the cash for the timing belt before it goes.
I would check to find out exactly what the mechanic will replace because 600+ is very high if that’s the price just a belt and tensioner without the waterpump getting replaced too..
Although prices vary regionally, go to repairpal , enter your zipcode and see what is usual for your area.Yeah, maybe I didn’t word that quite right. The vacuum did decrease to about 15″ when I ran it up to 3K rpm and then settled back down to idle vacuum pretty quickly when I held it at that rpm. I actually had slightly MORE idle vacuum, almost an inch, after putting the injector cleaner in the tank before my test run than the previous time I’d taken my vacuum readings. I’m sure this makes more sense than what I had up here before. I’m trying to get too dang many things done at the same time!
All that being said I have to retract what I wrote earlier about the engine running better. After running around our little town and taking it out on the highway for several trips up and back the engine did run quite a bit better. THEN I let it sit for about 45 minutes waiting for a grandkid to get out of school. I took the Lancer into town (45 mile round trip) and it ran fairly well even with the A/C on. After parking it in town for an hour everything pretty much went back to the way it was before. Rough idle – especially with the A/C on – and had to turn the A/C off a couple of times on the trip back on the highway due to it running rough again. Runs fairly well with the A/C off, terrible with it on especially with slow town driving. Wondering about a stuck/sticky EGR valve. The fuel flow to the cylinders did seem to pick up though as when the cylinders WERE firing there was still the increased power I’d originally had on my test run.
Regarding the fuel trims, the Long Term Fuel Trim stayed pretty much at 10.2 when idling and at 3K rpm while Short Term FT was all over the place, especially at high rpm, which means STFT was well below LTFT all the time. I’m using Harbor Freight’s Centech 60694 OBDII/EOBD reader.
There are two error codes that have popped up – P0302 and P0401. Misfire on 2 and Low exhaust flow on EGR?
The high long term fuel trim indicates the ecm is being told there is a lean condition, so it is adding fuel.
This would make sense for a sticking EGR, as that leans out the mixture when it is open at the wrong time.
The cylinder 2 misfire could also be from the lean condition–or not.If it’s truly the timing belt tensioner that’s squealing, be aware that you’re on borrowed time already.
Timing belts will break when a tensioner sticks for just a brief moment.Would it be worth it to try and use a lube on the stem between the diaphragm and globe on the EGR to see if the possible sticking would be alleviated? WD-40 tends to leave a gummy residue, would spray-on lithium grease be better?
I haven’t been able to get back to the Lancer as my F350 diesel’s starter motor just got partially kicked out of its socket due to a missing bottom bolt breaking the next one above it and the mating plate of the motor since the top bolt held. Got the starter out in pieces but I have to try and use an easy-out to get the middle bolt shaft out of the hole it broke off in which will be tomorrow morning. Up to my backside in ‘gators but I’ll get back to the Lancer ASAP.
Thanks.
No. Unfortunately.
The only cure for a sticking EGR valve is to remove it and clean out all the sticky carbon deposits that are causing the problems.
No lubricants will help a sticking EGR, as the problem is the internal carbon deposits.
A new EGR gasket is less than a dollar at Rockauto, so it shouldn’t cost a fortune locally, either.
Carburetor cleaner will remove the gunk.
Watch this video (can skip to 5 minutes 33 seconds) to get very sound advice on exactly how to clean it and which parts of the EGR are never sprayed with carb cleaner (diaphragm & vacuum inlet).The cylinder #2 issue could also be a bad plug, wire, coil, oil in the spark plug hole, ,injector issue, compression trouble, etc..
Hope it’s a cheap to fix problem.
If there’s oil in the spark plug well, you have to replace the valve cover gasket–Make sure to get one that includes the 4 seals needed to seal the plug holes.
There’s no way to change those seals without removing the valve cover, as they sit underneath the valve cover.
I’m not talking about the seals that you see when you pull the coil off the plug.Sounds like you have your hands full with the F350.
Hope it goes smoothly for you.Aw geeze. My compliments to the engineers that made that EGR valve so easy to access on the ‘Vett! The Lancer’s isn’t really THAT bad but that’s a dream.
But, anyway, yeah, that’s pretty much what I did with the EGR valve on the Lancer. It’s construction is such that it has an upper and lower chamber but you really can’t see the globe and seat that well. The upper chamber that had the carbon deposits in it, the exhaust side, did hold the carb cleaner, and later brake cleaner because I ran out, in it until I raised the stem by the diaphragm so I know it doesn’t leak. I’m pretty sure the diaphragm is intact as well but it could bear checking again BUT that would mean it’s stuck closed. What could have happened is more carbon from the exhaust side moved in and could be stuck in the seat so, yeah, wouldn’t hurt to pull it and take a second look.
This is the first time I’ve ever seen a P030-anything code on this car but I’ve been seriously thinking about replacing the coils and wires on it anyway. I did do an ohm test on them and they were within specs according to the shop manual I have. That being said I wonder if there’s a bad short in one or more plug connectors as I’m pretty sure I see trace marks on the rubber. They’re probably the originals.
I did replace the plug tube cups a couple of years ago as this was one of the first things I found wrong with this engine. There was oil in the tubes high enough to short the plug so at that time it got new cups, platinum plugs and a valve cover gasket as the old gasket was leaking badly too. So far there’s been no evidence of leakage into the tube since then.
Got the broken bolt out of the diesel a lot easier than I thought it was going to be. Those bolt hole threads are not tight at all so the new ones are definitely going to get the Locktite treatment before they go back in! Just had the ball joints, bushings, seals and bearings replaced on the front suspension by my favorite bunch of mechanics so they were in the proximity of the starter. If the bolts were already missing and/or hanging you’d think they would have spied it while it was up on the rack. I can be a little myopic too when I’m working, though.
Glad you got the broken bolt out of the Ford without much trouble.
Unless your shop removed the starter to make replacing a front end component easier, it would be an easy thing to miss.You’re right about the wires ohming out OK but still possibly shorting to ground.
I’m sure you realize could move plugs,coils and wires one item at a time to see if the misfire moves with it.
The FSM should detail how to test the coils, should you prefer the faster route to the answer on the coil.
I’d get a Denso wire set for under $13 at RA, since they’re possibly the OE wires.
The higher than usual LTFT is probably just the misfire on #2, if it remains the same when holding it at 2500RPMs for 30 seconds.Still, that EGR is obviously having some issues based on the P0401and P0402
Unless the FSM suggests an electronic or vacuum source issue for the EGR, I’d clean the heck out of the EGR innards and see if the code stays away.
IDK if the passages are narrow enough in the engine to develop blockages.Don’t know if anyone’ll get this but I finally scaped some dough together and got a rebuilt EGR valve for the Lancer off of eBay for $75. It helped immensely – once I figured out that I’d forgotten to reconnect the MAF sensor connection after installation. Runs much better even with the A/C on. I still have new coils and wires coming in for good measure.
I did erase the codes but it’ll take another trip or two to town to get them to see what gets set. Just glad to have the little ol’ econobox running again.
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