1997 Honda Civic EX Sedan, Transmission Quirks

Spent most of the last month battling flu bugs, actually. Annoying, that; it’s kept me from more than just automotive repair.

This week, I’ve been back on my feet catching up on EVERYTHING – and today, I’ve finally tracked down replacement Honda ATF, a new crush washer for the drain plug, and a nice long funnel to reach the transmission dipstick hole…. as well as a transmission conditioner to appease my father, who for unknown reasons has decided to butt in on this situation despite not being any sort of car guy or technician. -_-

Literally just got back home; I’m letting the car cool down for an hour before I start the transmission fluid change and an oil change. Will respond again later on with further developments as they arise.

EDIT: My Instagram post has further details on the matter…. but I followed the instructions available (literally; had the “How to Change Honda ATF” video open as I was doing the work), and couldn’t remove the bolt; the sucker is seized on by rust. All I did was wreck one of my older 3/8 ratchets. :pinch:

Got the oil change done, though.

Update to those concerned: finally tracked down a two-foot long 3/8 breaker bar (Princess Auto up here in Canada is a lifesaver on that front!), cracked that pesky drain bolt and did the first run of transmission fluid changing; with the extra leverage it took an hour to get the change done (with a Lucas transmission conditioner as well; about 450 KM until the next change. See Instagram post, linked at the bottom of this post, for further details.)
All told, between the Honda ATF, a new crush washer for the drain plug, Lucas transmission conditioner and the breaker bar I spent about $70CDN – thankfully, the next run that price will be cut down by about $20… long breaker bars are PRICEY suckers, though definitely worth the investment. I believe the funnel I bought a month ago also cost another $10 or so, though I can’t seem to locate that particular receipt… anywho, next change the total price will be basically cut in half compared to all the crud that lead to today’s effort.

Arcee shifts much smoother now, and in a 50-60 kilometer drive (an average day’s driving) I didn’t encounter the almighty rattle and transmission slippage was comparatively minor. How much of that’s down to the ATF vs the transmission conditioner? Anyone’s guess.
However, the CEL persists in remaining active – thankfully with the codes originally mentioned; presumably that’s down to the fact the system’s still… what, half full of the old fluid? Furthermore, an odd situation has cropped up; at operating temperature, on rare occasions I’ve got to floor it to at least 3500 RPM before acceleration transfers into solid movement. Strange…
In any event, I suppose we’ll see how (if?) things change in 450 KM, when I change the fluid once again. Thankfully THAT round promises to be easier. I’ll keep you posted.

Negative. Filter on 6th generation Civics is internal (possibly all 6th gen Hondas) – all I did was pull the dipstick (doubles as a fill plug), crack the drain bolt to drain the old fluid, replace the drain bolt’s crush washer, tighten the drain bolt back into place, and refill with 3L of Honda ATF.

What you’re thinking of, Wyr, is something like this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVhXQti8Qv4

I referred to this video for Honda transmission fluid work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7_RsnD8hAU

Watch them both, listen to Eric’s commentary; you’ll see the differences.

And I’m grateful for that dipstick every day – makes the drain-n-fill absolutely easy.

According to all available info I could locate, yes, Hondas are picky about the type of transmission fluid utilized. No, they are NOT as picky about transmission conditioners – which is what Lucas Oil is. On the other hand, I’ve dumped one of each variety of the Lucas Oil transmission conditioners into the transmission since getting the car; the old fluid got a dose of the low-level transmission conditioner, while this latest changeover got the same fluid that Eric himself used in his Subaru back in the day. That being said, I will likely take your advice, Wyr, and avoid the transmission conditioner with the next drain-n-fill in 500 miles (800 KM); the ones I’ve dumped in have likely done more than enough.
(I’m following TimingLight’s suggestion vis a vis transmission fluid; check earlier in the post.)

The closest Canada has to Harbor Freight that I’ve ever been aware of is a franchise called Canadian Tire. Half my tools are from their tool brand, Motomaster. Surprisingly, despite the parallels between the two brands I’ve never had the issues with Motomaster tools that others have had with Harbor Freight.

[quote=”WyrTwister” post=187942]Sounds like you are on the right track with your transmission .

Unfortunately, I do knot know of any “modern” transmissions that have a drain plug in the torque converter. So, all in all, you are not able to drain but 40% – 60% of the old, dirty fluid.[/quote]

No modern ones do, that I’m aware of; even this vintage of Honda Civic doesn’t have a drain plug in the torque converter – it’s got a drain plug in the transmission assembly itself, though. The reason for waiting 500 miles/800 KM before I change the fluid again is so the old, dirty fluid can be cycled out of the torque converter into the assembly proper, so I’m told. The work I’ve done and plan to do should, in total, remove at least half of the old fluid and eliminate that pesky check engine light.
(The alternative is to buy 9L of Honda ATF and do three drain-n-fills with a drive cycle in between each one; that’s a Honda-approved flush technique I cannot afford to utilize at present.)

Harbor Freight – if I ever get access to it – is a brand I won’t touch if it involves moving parts. Breaker bars and the wrench types you’ve mentioned, Wyr? Sure. Any kind of ratchet, grinder, or specialty tool? No. I’ve heard many stories of the damages those things can do when they break, and am in no hurry to increase the risk of putting myself in the hospital. Honestly, with all the Motomaster/Harbor Freight comparisons I’ve seen in my research, I’m leery just using a floor jack from the brand. :unsure:

[quote=”WyrTwister” post=187942]You need to be able to take a fair look at what you are buying & how you will be using it. [/quote]

Thank you for your concern, Wyr; honest self-examination of all my purchases and their use has been the norm since I began DIY efforts. 🙂
I’m no professional mechanic myself; the work I’m doing on this car is purely to save money long-term. (Labor costs will eat people alive if they let ’em.) It is also practice and preparation for further savings, after I get something else. (Likely the same brand; Honda’s proven fairly reliable and long-lasting compared to the domestic brands I used to drive.)
I’m not gonna be buying high-end tools for a long time yet – it’s not necessary; all my work is done with the use of common hand tools and supplies. Most of my tools are Motomaster (or their companion brand, Certified). One breaker bar in my entire collection is from Princess Auto. Some of my ratchets, sockets and such are Stanley or DeWalt, which is as close to brand-name as I dare travel; strictly speaking, I don’t need that much high-quality equipment right now due to the nature of the work I’m doing. When I look to impact tools or specialty tools, then I’ll be checking “the good stuff”. 🙂

Thanks for the luck, Wyr. I doubt I’ll need it – the one obstacle I encountered to date during my fluid work has been eliminated – but it’s appreciated just the same.

Now if I could just get those old brake rotors free… :dry:

[quote=”WyrTwister” post=187958]Having trouble getting brake rotors loose from the hub ? Have seen mechanics in videos bouncing the ” face ” of then ( between the lug bolts ) with an air hammer .

Carefully squirt with you favorite penetrating oil . VERY carefully apply heat . Squirt with more oil . The heat seems to draw the oil in .

If the rotors are to be replaced any way , try hitting the ” rim ” from the opposite side . Again , with an air hammer if you have one .

You are 100% correct . Labor costs will eat you alive . I used to complain about the high cost of parts . Sometimes you can save decent money by ordering on line . But , in the long run , you pay what you have to pay or you walk .

God bless
Wyr[/quote]

Getting the rotors off in and of itself isn’t the problem; I could do it myself, except for one detail. Honda’s got these pesky screws holding the rotor to the hub, screws that (outside initial vehicle assembly) are entirely unnecessary. (Thank heavens this is a Civic and not an Accord… captive rotors SUCK.)
With the vehicle being 20 years old (and whoever did the last brake job decided to keep those screws on there!) those screws are on TIGHT; too tight for mere hand tools. A mechanic friend suggested grinding the heads of the screws off and removing the remnants with pliers; I’m going to track down a good grinder and do that, because heat and penetrating oil haven’t done much. Of course, then I’ll have to track down new calipers because the ones on the car are causing mildly uneven pad wear… :blink: ….as I said before, this car’s a test run. Lots of work to do on it, but it still runs in the meantime. ^_^;

Before you drill out the screws, try putting some penetrating oil in there and then using an impact screw driver as mentioned above. Worked real well for me. Drilling out screws can sometimes be a pain.

Tried that to no avail; did more damage to the driver’s socket than the screw itself. :blink:
(And lemme tell you – tracking down the impact itself was a BEAR! Turns out I don’t have one; had to borrow from a friend, and reaching him took a few days! ^_^; )
A buddy of mine tried a torch and a drill the same day I attempted the impact driver… to no effect; he had bits too weak for screws, and apparently carbide drill bits are rare out here. :huh:
Another friend (who’s actually a certified mechanic) suggested a grinder; grind the screw heads (and a little of the surrounding areas) down, then remove the screw remnants with penetrating oil and pliers. It’s gonna be… painful… but that’s the next trick on my list. Thankfully the old rotors are being scrapped anyway…

Also your transmission fluid looked pretty dark. Did you have a lot of shavings on the plug? I also like to wait several hundred miles before repeating the transmission fluid change. It gives time for the new fluid to cycle in there and do some cleaning. I heard the lucas additive is pretty thick. How has it been holding up?

The plug was covered in shavings, yes; I actually lost a shop rag (it tore itself apart) because of the sheer volume of shavings and goo on the plug. Also, the old fluid had the color (and consistency, sadly) of warm chocolate syrup as it flowed out; hard to say if that was down to the low-level conditioner (which I threw in when this whole project started) or the fluid itself. Either the original owner fed me a line (he claimed the old stuff was fresh, and that was less than 15,000 KM ago!) or the old fluid hadn’t been changed in a very long time. Given the effort I had to go through to get that damn plug off and the positive results of the first fluid change, my bet’s on the latter…. or the transmission’s wearing out, in which case this car’s on borrowed time anyway.

Also, mckrishes, I presume you’ve read the thread’s posts to date; if you have, refer to posts made here by timinglight. He did the exact same process in his ’99 Civic as I’m doing in my ’97, and waited 500 miles (about 800 KM, give or take) before changing the fluid again. I intend to follow that example (seems the old transmission needed that new fluid and probably needs what’s to come; she’s driving better every day!) whether I use the Lucas additive on the fluid change to come will depend on my budget at the time.
The Lucas additive – at least the strong stuff; what Eric threw into his Subaru way back when – is pretty thick, yes. Not quite molasses, but not too far off; I had to wait five minutes to let the stuff flow down my funnel and into the transmission system. Thank goodness I poured that first; the DW-1 afterwards helped wash the excess off and get it where it needed to be.

As for its effect on Arcee’s transmission? Hard to say; until this run of DIY efforts I’d never done a transmission fluid change on a transmission in such bad shape, never mind used the Lucas additive, so I have no basis for additive/non-additive comparison beyond how the transmission ran under the old fluid (which, as my initial post should demonstrate, was pretty freakin’ bad!). The additive itself is holding up well, to the best of my knowledge – the car shifts smoother, the transmission doesn’t overheat (as much) anymore, and slips are less prevalent than in the past. Before, I couldn’t run the AC or even cold air in my car for fear of a devastating overheat; now I can at least activate the AC for short periods… though the compressor is rather pathetic in comparison to what I’m used to. (Then again, wasn’t AC optional on Hondas of this vintage? Doubt they’d have sprung for a strong AC compressor in that case… ^_^; )
All in all, the transmission situation is improving – for which I am grateful, whatever may come next. Heck, the old girl just hit 290,000 KM the other day and isn’t slowing down – something I never thought I’d see on any car at home; most of the beaters my parents burned through died in the early 200,000s! 🙂

[quote=”WyrTwister” post=188106]Mildly uneven pad wear . Were me , I would lube the places where the pads move against metal , after I removed rust & crud .

https://www.google.com/search?q=permatex+brake+pin+lubericanr&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=ubuntu&channel=fs#channel=fs&q=permatex+brake+pin+lubricant

Then I would re-use the old calipers . Flush , then bleed as necessary .

I would again assess the wear pattern next time I replaced pads .

[/quote]

Thank you, Wyr. Performed full brake service during initial brake job attempt, using the following as guidelines:

(Yes, I know; the last video’s not ETCG.)

Have been continuing use of old calipers since initial brake job efforts; bleeder valves are seized, and the fresh grease in the caliper guide pins went ugly (still works, but looks nasty!) within two weeks of the brake service; the calipers themselves are still mostly functional, however (bleeder valves aside) and the uneven wear is rather mild; brake pad levels have not majorly fluctuated in the last few months. Will check status again as brake job is completed.