- This topic has 18 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 8 months ago by
.
-
Topic
-
I wish the titles of these topics would let me put in the entire title sometimes. Do Steel Braided Brake Lines Make Your Car Stop Better? is what it should read.
That said, I wanted to try and experiment and BuyBrakes.com was there to help me do that with my Acura Vigor. As you’ll see in the video I didn’t get everything I wanted out of this installation, but after a few other upgrades, it got even better. I also shot video of those upgrades. They’ll show up at some point.
-
Replies
-
Very comprehensive video Eric, good job, I will be sure to employ the depressed brake pedal next time to prevent all the fluid from escaping.
I thought I’d share my experience from fitting steel lines, I did this around a year ago on my Yaris.
Like yourself, I wasn’t 100% happy after fitting them, mainly because I also lost one of the securing fittings for the front lines. I know it wasn’t too much of an issue on your Vigor because it has multiple securing points, but on my car, the original lines had a single moulded/crimped plate that bolts up to the strut. The new steel lines from HEL only had a rubber sleeve that wouldn’t clip into place or bolt down like the factory lines. Photo below shows that after a short test drive around the block the new line was making contact with its surroundings so I also opted to cable tie it into place (not ideal and perhaps not even passable for our yearly road worthiness inspection at a strict tester in the UK).
Whilst its secure, I do a regular inspection to make sure it doesn’t come loose – mostly for my own piece of mind/paranoia.
Secondly, the factory lines had a locating pin which prevented the banjo fitting from rotating on the caliper side, the HEL ones don’t have the pin as shown below.
So in two ways, I don’t feel like it was an upgrade, however being an older car I wanted to replace the lines anyway as I could hear them creaking if I pressed the pedal firmly whilst stopped.
In future I think I would just replace them with factory hoses on any older vehicle because I feel like the factory ones might be more durable, something I noticed on the Sentra you were working on, those steel lines had obviously been on that vehicle for some years and they didn’t look like they were holding up too well (installation may have had something to do with that or it might just be in my head).As far as pedal feel is concerned, I think my pedal definitely feels better but only under harsh braking, in normal driving I can’t tell the difference. If I had the time and space I would’ve liked to measure stopping distances before and after fitting them but I didn’t do this.
I’m not convinced that measuring the pedal travel on a stationary vehicle with the force of your hand is really an accurate indication of pedal feel. In my opinion “pedal feel” and “pedal travel” are two different variables that are closely related but I understand your point. There is also a psychological factor that makes most people believe there is a significant improvement which may be something that has affected me. I drive the car pretty hard and on occasion when I have gone to a track and had the opportunity to brake harshly over and over again, the pedal feels less spongy. Of course there are other factors, i.e. changing the lines also means fresh fluid is flushed through the entire system so that makes it difficult to measure the effects of just the lines as well.
Many times the extra mush/softness that you feel with the brakes is due to flexing of the firewall – they sell master cylinder braces for many cars to help prevent that. Could be the case here. (it’s a common modification on the Subaru WRX/STi)
In lieu of a zip tie, wouldn’t it be possible to cut the old brake line in half, remove any clips that were used to secure it, cut a notch in those clips and slip them on the new brake line?
Other possible alternatives to zip ties would be like those “Command” Cable guides I’ve used for cable management before, if you could find one that could wrap around a typical diameter brake line and then drill a hole for a nut/bolt and secure it that way.
My first post but have been watching these videos for a long time.
I’m not an Engineer but here are my thoughts. Will these braided lines help stop the car better, absolutely not and here’s why. All things being equal, hydraulic pressure in a mechanical system is dependent on the driving force behind it and the components within the system. If the braking system has parts that allow for expansion this equates to a delay in order to build the adequate pressure needed to apply force on the braking material, in this case pads contacting the rotors. The delay is a perception that the braking system is not adequately doing it’s job when in reality the pressure is not where it would be less the expansion. A lot can contribute to this, one being old rubber brake lines but this doesn’t mean the system isn’t capable of stopping in the same distance given appropriate pressure is achieved.
It really comes down to this. Brakes essentially do not stop the vehicle, tires do. If the mechanical advantage of the braking system is lower than the coefficient of friction of the tires your stopping distance will be longer. If you have tires that provide a higher level of grip than the brake system, well I guess you see where I’m going. I’m not saying there aren’t other factors that play into this but this is the simple math.
Steel braided lines are great for what they really are intended to do which is provide a better feel. They can reduce the pedal travel and provide quicker application of the brakes but it will NOT reduce the stopping distance. The ability to modulate is their higher purpose during hard driving, for example on the track. Consistent and repeatable brake pedal feel during application is where they really shine.
If you want to reduce the braking distance it comes down to pad material and tire compound.
My $.02
I was going to install steel lines on my car yesterday, but decided to wait and get a flared line wrench first. However I talked to a friend that is a mechanic today and he said steel lines are supposed to be replaced every 3 years. Have you heard of that, cause I thought they would last a longer period then that.
Also my kit did not come with new spring clips. My car is 5 years old with 23k miles, do I need new clips or can I reuse them?
[quote=”DrD” post=161911]Many times the extra mush/softness that you feel with the brakes is due to flexing of the firewall – they sell master cylinder braces for many cars to help prevent that. Could be the case here. (it’s a common modification on the Subaru WRX/STi)[/quote]
Actually, the master cylinder stopper is on my “to-do” list, although I don’t think it will make much difference, the firewall shouldn’t really be flexing and there isn’t any observable flex (on my car) when applying full brake pedal force whilst stationary.[quote=”Kazuo” post=161912]In lieu of a zip tie, wouldn’t it be possible to cut the old brake line in half, remove any clips that were used to secure it, cut a notch in those clips and slip them on the new brake line?
Other possible alternatives to zip ties would be like those “Command” Cable guides I’ve used for cable management before, if you could find one that could wrap around a typical diameter brake line and then drill a hole for a nut/bolt and secure it that way.[/quote]
Could do, I didn’t want to hack up my old lines in case I ever wanted to refit them, plus I believe the fittings are crimped on so not sure how that would turn out.[quote=”Massonic” post=161913]
If you want to reduce the braking distance it comes down to pad material and tire compound. [/quote]
Not sure if I agree with the rest of your post but the above is very true, which is why I added the steel lines after doing tyres and discs/pads.[quote=”ctmnismo” post=161914]
Also my kit did not come with new spring clips. My car is 5 years old with 23k miles, do I need new clips or can I reuse them?[/quote]
I reused the clips but the kit came with new bolts and washers.Also, I wonder what people near by would’ve thought if they saw Eric repeatedly slamming on the brakes in that car park! 😆
[quote=”Dizplay” post=161910]Very comprehensive video Eric, good job, I will be sure to employ the depressed brake pedal next time to prevent all the fluid from escaping.
I thought I’d share my experience from fitting steel lines, I did this around a year ago on my Yaris.
Like yourself, I wasn’t 100% happy after fitting them, mainly because I also lost one of the securing fittings for the front lines. I know it wasn’t too much of an issue on your Vigor because it has multiple securing points, but on my car, the original lines had a single moulded/crimped plate that bolts up to the strut. The new steel lines from HEL only had a rubber sleeve that wouldn’t clip into place or bolt down like the factory lines. Photo below shows that after a short test drive around the block the new line was making contact with its surroundings so I also opted to cable tie it into place (not ideal and perhaps not even passable for our yearly road worthiness inspection at a strict tester in the UK).
Whilst its secure, I do a regular inspection to make sure it doesn’t come loose – mostly for my own piece of mind/paranoia.
Secondly, the factory lines had a locating pin which prevented the banjo fitting from rotating on the caliper side, the HEL ones don’t have the pin as shown below.
So in two ways, I don’t feel like it was an upgrade, however being an older car I wanted to replace the lines anyway as I could hear them creaking if I pressed the pedal firmly whilst stopped.
In future I think I would just replace them with factory hoses on any older vehicle because I feel like the factory ones might be more durable, something I noticed on the Sentra you were working on, those steel lines had obviously been on that vehicle for some years and they didn’t look like they were holding up too well (installation may have had something to do with that or it might just be in my head).As far as pedal feel is concerned, I think my pedal definitely feels better but only under harsh braking, in normal driving I can’t tell the difference. If I had the time and space I would’ve liked to measure stopping distances before and after fitting them but I didn’t do this.
I’m not convinced that measuring the pedal travel on a stationary vehicle with the force of your hand is really an accurate indication of pedal feel. In my opinion “pedal feel” and “pedal travel” are two different variables that are closely related but I understand your point. There is also a psychological factor that makes most people believe there is a significant improvement which may be something that has affected me. I drive the car pretty hard and on occasion when I have gone to a track and had the opportunity to brake harshly over and over again, the pedal feels less spongy. Of course there are other factors, i.e. changing the lines also means fresh fluid is flushed through the entire system so that makes it difficult to measure the effects of just the lines as well.[/quote]
Thanks for your input. I agree. I think saying ‘pedal travel’ instead of ‘pedal feel’ would clear things up.
A few people have suggested that, but I don’t think it’s the case here. If I were to guess, I’d say the rubber hose on the ABS module might have something to do with it. Acura actually wanted those replaced as a service item at 60K on those vehicles.
[quote=”Kazuo” post=161912]In lieu of a zip tie, wouldn’t it be possible to cut the old brake line in half, remove any clips that were used to secure it, cut a notch in those clips and slip them on the new brake line?
Other possible alternatives to zip ties would be like those “Command” Cable guides I’ve used for cable management before, if you could find one that could wrap around a typical diameter brake line and then drill a hole for a nut/bolt and secure it that way.[/quote]
The zip tie took about 5 seconds AND is serviceable. What you suggest sounds like way too much work.
[quote=”Massonic” post=161913]My first post but have been watching these videos for a long time.
I’m not an Engineer but here are my thoughts. Will these braided lines help stop the car better, absolutely not and here’s why. All things being equal, hydraulic pressure in a mechanical system is dependent on the driving force behind it and the components within the system. If the braking system has parts that allow for expansion this equates to a delay in order to build the adequate pressure needed to apply force on the braking material, in this case pads contacting the rotors. The delay is a perception that the braking system is not adequately doing it’s job when in reality the pressure is not where it would be less the expansion. A lot can contribute to this, one being old rubber brake lines but this doesn’t mean the system isn’t capable of stopping in the same distance given appropriate pressure is achieved.
It really comes down to this. Brakes essentially do not stop the vehicle, tires do. If the mechanical advantage of the braking system is lower than the coefficient of friction of the tires your stopping distance will be longer. If you have tires that provide a higher level of grip than the brake system, well I guess you see where I’m going. I’m not saying there aren’t other factors that play into this but this is the simple math.
Steel braided lines are great for what they really are intended to do which is provide a better feel. They can reduce the pedal travel and provide quicker application of the brakes but it will NOT reduce the stopping distance. The ability to modulate is their higher purpose during hard driving, for example on the track. Consistent and repeatable brake pedal feel during application is where they really shine.
If you want to reduce the braking distance it comes down to pad material and tire compound.
My $.02[/quote]
I’ll be honest. The title of the video is meant to gain interest in the video. What I was going for, and what I tried to show in the video was that steel braided lines to make for a better pedal feel and overall braking experience. To some, that is a great improvement. In fact, I love driving that car even more now that the new lines are on it. Sometimes it’s just psychological, but that can be enough with some performance upgrades.
Thanks for your input.
[quote=”ctmnismo” post=161934]I was going to install steel lines on my car yesterday, but decided to wait and get a flared line wrench first. However I talked to a friend that is a mechanic today and he said steel lines are supposed to be replaced every 3 years. Have you heard of that, cause I thought they would last a longer period then that.
Also my kit did not come with new spring clips. My car is 5 years old with 23k miles, do I need new clips or can I reuse them?[/quote]
I haven’t heard of the replacement requirement. You can reuse the old clips if they aren’t damaged.
Eric,
Would it be possible to cut the old lines and show what is inside?
I’ve heard all brake lines have braided steel in them, but perhaps the OEM ones have less steel or another pattern?TIA, Jaap
OEM brake lines are typically rubber inner and outer and have some sort of reinforcing braid between the two – it’s not generally stainless, though. For the stainless lines, the stainless doesn’t actually touch the fluid – the inner line is usually PTFE (teflon) or a similar material – the outer steel braid is to protect the PTFE – the teflon line is what makes it less flexible than a rubber line, and is why you can’t kink a braided stainless line without risking damage to the liner (if you’ve worked with PTFE or FEP lines, you’d see how low their flexibility is when compared to rubber – in a nutshell you are switching from something which is an elastomer to something which is not)
For the firewall flex above, it’s very vehicle dependent – on the older Subaru WRX (certainly on my old 02) if you had someone press firmly on the brake pedal, you could watch the movement of the firewall/booster (doesn’t have to be a lot of movement to cause a change in feel).
[quote=”Jaap” post=161964]Eric,
Would it be possible to cut the old lines and show what is inside?
I’ve heard all brake lines have braided steel in them, but perhaps the OEM ones have less steel or another pattern?TIA, Jaap[/quote]
Not those brake lines. I shot this video last December. Those lines are long gone now.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.