- This topic has 39 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 4 months ago by
.
-
Topic
-
I waited a looooooooong time to make this video. Last year I posted on social media about this question and it was easily the most popular social media post that I’ve ever done. So I decided to do my own testing as I’ve always believed it was better to put new tires on the front. In my case, it was better to put them on the front, but I’m sure some of you will disagree with that. If so, let’s talk it out.
-
Replies
-
I was recently told that the new/best tires should go on the rear. The logic is that, in a slide, you have a better chance of correcting the path of the front end wih steering so you want good tread on the rear to minimize traction loss right from the start.
That is in direct conflict with what I have always been told so I am still trying to process this new information and come to my own conclusion.
I feel that the testing done by Eric in the video was not conclusive due to the rapidly changing conditions and lack of space. This is just an observation and not a criticism. Nice try Eric! 🙂
Once again T.I.A. rules are that the better tires ALWAYS go on the rear if one is only getting two tires. Snow tires ALWAYS go on as a full set as well. If you don’t know what the T.I.A. is then you shouldn’t be installing tires.
I am not in the tire business so I was not familiar with T.I.A. until I looked it up as a result of it being mentioned here.
So, if someone replaces only two tires, does that remove tire rotation from the picture until a full set is installed or can the tires be rotated from side to side on the same axle?
Youtube video just confirmed that there is more traction on the end of the car the pair of new tires are installed. The problem is what happens in a skid. Is the car “ündersteering” (front end skid) or “oversteering” (rear end skid) and the drivers reaction to those events. The normal reaction to any skid is braking the car. If the driver has less traction on the front of the car (old tires) the front end skids, driver brakes the skid is fixed. If the driver has less traction on the rear of the car (old tires) the rear end skids, driver brakes the skid is worsen!
It’s commendable to try and answer this controversial question, but I’ll put my best tires for steering control. And I’ll put my best tires for maximum braking. With FWD, we kill both those birds with the tires up front.
The real circumstance where low traction in the rear become a problem is when the rears track outside of the front’s tracks where snow or water is mostly cleared. This happens in low radius turns and skids. Even on just water on a warn day, the rears can hydroplane with loss of directional control if they track outside of the front’s cleared path.
In the final analysis, slowing down always works, even better than four new tires.
Hi Eric,
I’m a very big fan of you and love what you do, but man you got out of hand in this one.
I worked for several years in car industry and mostly performance department. The test you have done is “rigged” from the start. It’s not a way of testing new tires at the front or at the back in this way. The test you made was sure to give a 100% chance to new front tires but… Let me explain:
In snow condiditions you are expected to have 4 good tires. Obviously, if you go on a parking lot with very tight turn radius the front will slip with less then new tires. It’s basic. But unless one only drives in that conditions, new tires always go to the back. (Every car manufacturer says that, every tire manufacturer says that, every safety agencie says that, and all of we who worked on performance say that).
I’ll explain why:
Most of the weight of the car is (generealy) at the front, so in almost every situation the weight will be pushing hard on those tires against the ground. If you are cornering at speed, the front always will have more weight on it, while the rear is the exact oposite. At the fron, the mass of the car is pushing hard on those tires, at the back the tires have to do extra work to grip and hold the rear end.
Braking is exactl the same situation, if you brake with new tires at the front, and old at the back, specially in even a slight corner, you can have a very bad surprise.
Common “myth” is that since it’s the weels at the front that do the steering you should have the good tires there. Not exactly because that can actually unbalance the car, since the rear end will have no traction and you loose the rear. If the good ones are at the back, the front can slip for example but the rear will remain glued to the ground, so in the second the front grips again the “whip effect” woun’t throw the rear to the embankment.
Very good video explainig these:
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__0DL8dE3Eo[/video]Sorry for the long text, and it’s actually my first in here, and sorry if my English is not the best, but I’m Portuguese.
Best regards and keep it up Eric, you’re awsome!
In a perfect world, where people rotated their tires on schedule, all 4 tires would wear evenly, and, when replacement was necessary, all 4 would be replaced. Tire wear would always be in balance.
Personally, where front wheel drive is concerned, I would always put the best tires on the front. The front wheels have to deal with throttle, steering and braking inputs, while the rear tires lead a much simpler life. I’d want the better tires on the wheels that do the most work. If the tread wear between the old and new new tires is so great that the older tires present potential handling hazards in certain situations, those tires need to be replaced. It’s false economy to bet your safety on playing games with a pair of questionable tires.
First. This was NOT a test about snow tires! Let’s just take that out of the conversation. BTW, with all 4 Michelins on the Acura, it does awesome in the snow. I learned how to drive in a Buffalo winter. In short, I know how to drive on snowy roads, I know tires, and I know that if you’re driving in those conditions, snow tires are the way to go. I will say that the all seasons that are on the Acura now are impressive in all weather conditions I’ve driven them in thus far. Are they snow tires? No, but once again this isn’t about snow tires, it’s about where to put your ‘good’ tires.
I never mentioned snow tires or anything of the sort in the video. I chose the conditions for the video intentionally as I knew that I would not be able to find a ‘safe’ place to test this at speed outside of a parking lot. I figured if I did the test in snow, it would amplify the results. To some degree I believe I was correct in that, but you also must understand this was shot on the day, on location, as it happened. We simply didn’t have the time to ‘stage’ anything and it was quite cold, we are a 2 man production crew after all. I like to torture Brian, but not that much.
Second. PLEASE READ THE DESCRIPTION OF THE VIDEO!!!!!! I’m a little tired of people posting about it being best to put tires in the rear and citing this video or that. I’ve already included this information in the video description, including a link to one of those videos showing the results of their testing with putting the best tires on the rear. I get it.
Third. In my opinion, it’s always best to purchase 4 new tires. I said it in the video and I’ve covered this before. (this video was also linked in the description)
I LOVE new tires. I’m sort of a junky for them. You don’t have to convince me that getting 4 new tires is best. I even pointed that out in the video.
4th. The brake test is invalid. I pointed that out in the video. I could not maintain a consistent speed through the cones, therefore I don’t consider this test to have any value at all. And no, a GPS would not help with that. Just because it can accurately tell me my speed, it can’t make me go the same speed through the cones each time.
To that end, I don’t need to hear about my measuring equipment not being accurate because of snow buildup or some other BS. The test itself is flawed so the measurements don’t matter.
5th. Someone in the comments came up with what I think, would be a great test to check traction. Keep driving in a circle and increase speed until the vehicle breaks loose. I wish I had thought of that on the day of testing.
6th. Yes, they were 2 different brands of tire. I don’t think that invalidates the test. The main reason being. I’ve been working as a technician for some time and I’ve seen quite a few customer cars. The ones that can’t afford new tires often go for whatever tires they can find on the day one of their existing tires blow up or I cut my hand on the steel chords coming out of the things. I’ve seen 4 different tires on the same vehicle on more than one occasion. I think the fact that they were 2 different brands of tires is more indicative of someone in the position of only purchasing 2 tires.
7th. I stand by the video. I did not alter it in any way. You can plainly see that under the conditions I was driving in, with the vehicle and tires I was using, putting the best tires on the front would be best. I had zero directional stability with the old tires on the front. Zero. You can talk about driving at speed all day long, but if you can’t reach that speed, or you can steer your way to avoid danger, you’re gonna crash just the same as you would if the back end slipped out.
And that brings me to another point. Those that have brought up overtaking someone in adverse road conditions. Remember where I mentioned that I learned how to drive in the snow in Buffalo? I can’t count the number of 4WD’s or SUV’s I’ve seen in the ditch over the years during a snow storm. It’s really overconfidence that gets people into trouble in adverse weather. They drive too fast for the conditions and end up paying the price. Take the tire argument out of the equation. If you’re a reckless driver, you’re going to have a problem in bad weather no matter what tires are on your vehicle.
Now, most people aren’t going to only drive at 25mph in a parking lot. People go much faster than that, and they drive on roads. I realize this, but there was a comment posted to the video that I think sums it up best.
****”It’s really a choice if you want understeer, or oversteer”. ****
At the end of the day, where you put your 2 ‘good’ tires really depends on 1, the vehicle you’re driving, and 2, the type of driver you are. If you’re a person that can correct oversteer, turn into the skid, put the new tires on the front. If you’re a person that’s more of a novice, put them on the rear and slow the frick down.
I hope that addresses most of your comments. I hope this didn’t seem like too much of a rant, I was just trying to solidify my position based on the feedback I’ve gotten here and on the comments to the video. No matter what, I thank you for watching and for your comments.
[quote=”GT_in_action” post=158517]Hi Eric,
I’m a very big fan of you and love what you do, but man you got out of hand in this one.
I worked for several years in car industry and mostly performance department. The test you have done is “rigged” from the start. It’s not a way of testing new tires at the front or at the back in this way. The test you made was sure to give a 100% chance to new front tires but… Let me explain:
In snow condiditions you are expected to have 4 good tires. Obviously, if you go on a parking lot with very tight turn radius the front will slip with less then new tires. It’s basic. But unless one only drives in that conditions, new tires always go to the back. (Every car manufacturer says that, every tire manufacturer says that, every safety agencie says that, and all of we who worked on performance say that).
I’ll explain why:
Most of the weight of the car is (generealy) at the front, so in almost every situation the weight will be pushing hard on those tires against the ground. If you are cornering at speed, the front always will have more weight on it, while the rear is the exact oposite. At the fron, the mass of the car is pushing hard on those tires, at the back the tires have to do extra work to grip and hold the rear end.
Braking is exactl the same situation, if you brake with new tires at the front, and old at the back, specially in even a slight corner, you can have a very bad surprise.
Common “myth” is that since it’s the weels at the front that do the steering you should have the good tires there. Not exactly because that can actually unbalance the car, since the rear end will have no traction and you loose the rear. If the good ones are at the back, the front can slip for example but the rear will remain glued to the ground, so in the second the front grips again the “whip effect” woun’t throw the rear to the embankment.
Very good video explainig these:
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__0DL8dE3Eo[/video]Sorry for the long text, and it’s actually my first in here, and sorry if my English is not the best, but I’m Portuguese.
Best regards and keep it up Eric, you’re awsome![/quote]
I’m just going to comment that my Acura has a 60/40 weight distribution. For the rest of my comments, please see my post to this thread.
I have always replaced tires on front if it’s FWD as tires wares out much faster.
If its a RWD I would replace new to front and use old front to back but I live in hot tropical climate here.
Tires have better grip to road.
Talk about grip im just glad I don’t live in snow like in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARM8W6p9VbAEric is right. Ultimately this is a battle between whether you want oversteer or understeer. Personally, oversteer is much more fun.
When it comes to FWD, I gotta say that putting the tires on the front is the way to go, especially in winter conditions. My experience has shown me that I am adept at correcting oversteer. My 05 Toyota Matrix was a tank in the snow. I always put my best tires on the front, and that’s for a lot of reasons. FWD cars have their weight over the front axle as has already been mentioned. But tires (I Say) are still better up front. This is for three reasons. 1) During acceleration, weight transfers to the rear of the car, that’s just basic physics. This means on a FWD car, the weight transfers off the front wheels, which are the drive wheels. This is bad which means that you need the traction up front because the weight is being pulled off the front wheels. 2) During turning, you need the front wheels to do their job. You need the traction up front because the front wheels do the turning and nobody likes ditches. You have a lot of weight up front in a FWD car which is going to cause the front end to “push” or understeer. Because this is just the way FWD cars are, you need the traction up front. Want to turn? Put the good tires on the front. Eric’s video did a great job pointing this out in particular. This links into my next point. 3) During hard braking, all the weight is up front. This is where having good tires on the back becomes a good idea, and I really don’t want to refute it, but I will anyway. I don’t see a lot of harm having all the more traction up front when you are braking hard. With the weight transfer during hard braking, you’re going to have 80% of the weight on the front axle anyway, so you might as well have the grip. Additionally, during any panic maneuver you will most likely be using steering inputs as well. You will need that extra grip up front. You don’t want the car to start understeering. For me, understeer is just as unsettling as oversteer, if not more. Your front wheels aren’t doing their job, and that’s scary. If the back wheels get out of line all I have to do is countersteer. That’s always been easier for me.
When it comes to RWD cars, the argument pretty much reverses for me. Let’s admit it, we are all victims of our own hypocrisy. I don’t have my 05 Toyota Matrix anymore. And while I wish I did, I am the proud owner of a 07 Ford F150. It’s 2WD, which in the truck world means RWD. I don’t even have a locking rear diff! But, I make it around just fine in winter. Weight in the bed, and good tires make all the difference. Good tires on the rear, that is. I need the weight when I’m trying to accelerate, because, let’s face it, I have one wheel drive. During turning, if I have an understeer situation, I just goose the throttle to get me sideways to get me where I want to be. When I am braking, it is good to have that extra traction at the back. I think with the weight in the back, my truck is pretty well balanced because it is just a RWD truck with a stick, which is lighter than an automatic. Even if the front tires do push, I can break it sideways. I love RWD. I don’t think I’ll go back to anything else. It’s much easier to control in an emergency. If the back does break loose unexpectedly, I just let off the gas and countersteer. It straightens itself right out.
Echoing Eric, I think that novice drivers very well should have their good tires on the back on all vehicles. If you are more experienced and have a FWD car, put them on the front. RWD should always get the fresh ones on the rear for obvious reasons. I think the only real contention we have here is what to do with the FWD cars in our lives. I’m sure there will be a lot of disagreement on what I have said here as far as my FWD practices are concerned, but that’s just the way I do things.
[quote=”Hockeyclark” post=158599]When it comes to FWD, I gotta say that putting the tires on the front is the way to go, especially in winter conditions.[/quote]
Sorry, no. What you really do need in all conditions is directional stability. If you have better tires at the front, you will lose the rear end sooner or later -> loss of control.The matter is not huge if the tires are in somewhat similar condition. I do rotate my tires on a regular basis to achieve even wear. However, Eric was talking about a situation where you only replace two worn tires with new ones. In that case, better tires must be installed at the rear. This is the recommendation of every single car manufacturer, tyre manufacturer and insurace company. You could even ask pro racing drivers and they would give you the same answer.
This is something that is not a matter of opinion. There is only one correct way to do this. Any other way is wrong.
The video has me seriously worried. Eric usually gives very good tips and people listen to him. I pray to god they don’t on this matter. Having poor tires at the rear might actually get someone killed. Heck, it does every single day. Cars are designed to protect their occupants best in a head-on collision. Worst case scenario is spinning across oncoming traffic and getting t-boned and this video is in reality promoting that scenario.
[quote=”Mawerick” post=158682][quote=”Hockeyclark” post=158599]When it comes to FWD, I gotta say that putting the tires on the front is the way to go, especially in winter conditions.[/quote]
Sorry, no. What you really do need in all conditions is directional stability. If you have better tires at the front, you will lose the rear end sooner or later -> loss of control.The matter is not huge if the tires are in somewhat similar condition. I do rotate my tires on a regular basis to achieve even wear. However, Eric was talking about a situation where you only replace two worn tires with new ones. In that case, better tires must be installed at the rear. This is the recommendation of every single car manufacturer, tyre manufacturer and insurace company. You could even ask pro racing drivers and they would give you the same answer.
This is something that is not a matter of opinion. There is only one correct way to do this. Any other way is wrong.
The video has me seriously worried. Eric usually gives very good tips and people listen to him. I pray to god they don’t on this matter. Having poor tires at the rear might actually get someone killed. Heck, it does every single day. Cars are designed to protect their occupants best in a head-on collision. Worst case scenario is spinning across oncoming traffic and getting t-boned and this video is in reality promoting that scenario.[/quote]
It’s better for me. I know that it’s better for other people to put the best tires on the rear. I admitted that there are good arguments for putting better tires on the front, and ultimately those arguments win out when you apply them to the other 90% of drivers. Eric acknowledged that the consensus is that better tires should go on the rear. I would hope that people wouldn’t just trust the opinion of one person on the internet like Eric. I would hope they consult at least one other source. But Eric did his tests. He’s an experienced driver and so am I. I have a feeling that he is more comfortable with oversteer like I am. He made his conclusions. You can make yours and I make mine.
Overall, I think you’re blowing it a bit out of proportion. It’s best to put 4 good tires on but that’s not the reality of life. Some people prefer to be in certain situations and are familiar with them. I am very familiar with oversteer. It’s easy for me to correct. The other 90% of the American public will probably be better off with understeer. It’s easier for a novice to get familiar with .Oversteer causes panic in inexperienced drivers and causes accidents. That’s why the insurance companies, etc., say that people should put the good tires on the rear.
I think everyone beats to the march of a different drum. And I think that’s okay.
The following is copied verbatim from Michelin.com……… Take your pick and preference!!
“Deeper tread tires on the rear axle provide better handling, wet grip, and evacuate water, thereby helping to avoid oversteer and loss of vehicle stability on wet surfaces. Deeper tread tires on the front axle can improve wet straight line braking and stopping distance. If only two tires are being replaced, Michelin generally recommends they be installed on the rear axle in the absence of a tire service professional’s recommendation or consumer’s preference to the contrary.”
Well, first and foremost it’s to keep good tires all around.
On a FWD car, I think it’s best to keep the best on the front because 80+% of the braking, steering, and acceleration demands are on the front. If you are driving so fast like a jack wagon in slippery conditions to kick the back out, you are doomed anyways. However, even with the best drivers, someone can cut in front of you, or you have to take off from a slippery hill, and that’s the difference.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.